Hunting bullets explained / compared
- Thread starter huntingfish
- Start date
I too will echo Eagleye's post.
And also add that most people hunting moose in eastern Canada are not going to run into a moose of that subspecies that compares to the species found in western Canada or the Alaska/Yukon variety.The difference can be an animal that is twice as heavy, 700 lbs vs 1500 lbs+. This will be where a better constructed bullet out of your 300 WM is going to make a real difference. As mentioned above, the Nosler Partition and AccuBonds are favourites for this work. Many also use the Barnes TSX or TTSX, Hornady InterBond or GMX, Swift A-Frames and Scirocco's (I or II), etc.
The other factor will be your shot placement. Hit the moos low in the front shoulder, on the heaviest part of the front leg bone, and a stouter bullet is going to be required to make it through that bone and into the vitals. Or possibly that occasion where you are trying to drive that second bullet from stern to vitals as the wounded moose turns and runs away from you after being hit with that first shot. (The post above about the shot on the elk's shoulder is a good example. But the bone on moose is not as dense as that of an elk; which has the densest bone of any animal in north america. Tests performed on elk shoulder bones at the thickest point have shown that the minimum caliber/bullet weight combination required to penetrate that heavy bone and reliably make it into the vitals is a .338 cal/250gr bullet such as that out of the 338 Win Mag)
Moose do not have the constitution or tenacity of elk, and as mentioned above, are relative wimps in the big game world. They can be reliably harvested with less powerful cartridges and regular cup and core bullets. This is why so many have been harvested with 30-30's and the 303 British in Canada over the past 100+ years. Also, they are usually harvested at closer ranges; typically less than 200 yards. The old 30-06 with 180 gr Power Points and Corelokt bullets have also been used successfully by thousands of hunters for decades. I have harvested many moose over the years with some of these combinations, as well as others, and they have worked well. My Dad, grandfather and great grandfather have done it for decades with 30-30's and 170 gr bullets, and they all guided hunters for moose for a combined total of over 130 years (43 yrs, 45 yrs and 40 yrs respectively) who used a variety of rifles, cartridges and bullets. My Dad even guided John Barsness to moose, and it has been written up in several hunting magazines and even in the Nosler #6 Reloading Guide's preamble for the 9.3x62.
Find a bullet/load or ammunition that shoots accurately in your rifle that you are comfortable with, practice with it at the ranges you anticipate you may need to shoot a moose at within your specific hunting territory or planned destination, from various simulated field shooting positions, build your confidence, and go forth on your adventure. The biggest factor in the successful harvest of a moose will become ensuring your accurate bullet placement in the moose's vitals. After the hard work is done, it will be tasty meals shared with friends and family and fond memories of an exciting adventure!
Best of luck!
And also add that most people hunting moose in eastern Canada are not going to run into a moose of that subspecies that compares to the species found in western Canada or the Alaska/Yukon variety.The difference can be an animal that is twice as heavy, 700 lbs vs 1500 lbs+. This will be where a better constructed bullet out of your 300 WM is going to make a real difference. As mentioned above, the Nosler Partition and AccuBonds are favourites for this work. Many also use the Barnes TSX or TTSX, Hornady InterBond or GMX, Swift A-Frames and Scirocco's (I or II), etc.
The other factor will be your shot placement. Hit the moos low in the front shoulder, on the heaviest part of the front leg bone, and a stouter bullet is going to be required to make it through that bone and into the vitals. Or possibly that occasion where you are trying to drive that second bullet from stern to vitals as the wounded moose turns and runs away from you after being hit with that first shot. (The post above about the shot on the elk's shoulder is a good example. But the bone on moose is not as dense as that of an elk; which has the densest bone of any animal in north america. Tests performed on elk shoulder bones at the thickest point have shown that the minimum caliber/bullet weight combination required to penetrate that heavy bone and reliably make it into the vitals is a .338 cal/250gr bullet such as that out of the 338 Win Mag)
Moose do not have the constitution or tenacity of elk, and as mentioned above, are relative wimps in the big game world. They can be reliably harvested with less powerful cartridges and regular cup and core bullets. This is why so many have been harvested with 30-30's and the 303 British in Canada over the past 100+ years. Also, they are usually harvested at closer ranges; typically less than 200 yards. The old 30-06 with 180 gr Power Points and Corelokt bullets have also been used successfully by thousands of hunters for decades. I have harvested many moose over the years with some of these combinations, as well as others, and they have worked well. My Dad, grandfather and great grandfather have done it for decades with 30-30's and 170 gr bullets, and they all guided hunters for moose for a combined total of over 130 years (43 yrs, 45 yrs and 40 yrs respectively) who used a variety of rifles, cartridges and bullets. My Dad even guided John Barsness to moose, and it has been written up in several hunting magazines and even in the Nosler #6 Reloading Guide's preamble for the 9.3x62.
Find a bullet/load or ammunition that shoots accurately in your rifle that you are comfortable with, practice with it at the ranges you anticipate you may need to shoot a moose at within your specific hunting territory or planned destination, from various simulated field shooting positions, build your confidence, and go forth on your adventure. The biggest factor in the successful harvest of a moose will become ensuring your accurate bullet placement in the moose's vitals. After the hard work is done, it will be tasty meals shared with friends and family and fond memories of an exciting adventure!
Best of luck!
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I like your wording...
Back 60 years ago the bullets most available were Sierra, Hornady and Speer. I tried them all and chose Hornady as my favourite. Sierra's tended to blow up considerably, Speer's held together almost too much... Hornady's for me worked really well. Early on I never did like Nosler Partition but I never was a Magnum fan. I witnessed very poor performance of the 180 grain Partition in a 30-06. I ended up shooting a deer that had 3 Partitions go through with barely a wound channel. I saw the three hits as they happened with the deer 'flinching' at each hit. A friend of mine saw the same poor performance with a different shooter using an 06 with the 180 grain Partition. I think that weight and bullet construction was wrong for 30-06 velocities.
Today we have an excellent selection of bullets. Far too many for the average guy to try them all... Life is just too short...
huntingfish
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Quebec City
Lots of great info guys. Thanks a bunch. I wasn't able to come back to CGN until today.
I've checked out the thread about bullet penetration: WOW, great stuff.
I have to admit that I've been having a bit of remorse about buying a 300 WM. Seems like it won't be THAT much more than a 30-06 I already had. But seeing a lot of people go for heftier bullets (200-220gr), that seems like a very good way to make it stand out vs the 30-06.
I did have a look at a reloading press just for kickers...man it would be great. Just don't see how I could fit yet another hobby into my packed week and into my stretched wallet lol.
David
I've checked out the thread about bullet penetration: WOW, great stuff.
I have to admit that I've been having a bit of remorse about buying a 300 WM. Seems like it won't be THAT much more than a 30-06 I already had. But seeing a lot of people go for heftier bullets (200-220gr), that seems like a very good way to make it stand out vs the 30-06.
I did have a look at a reloading press just for kickers...man it would be great. Just don't see how I could fit yet another hobby into my packed week and into my stretched wallet lol.
David
My friend whom I hunted with for many years until his death, always used his .300 WM on moose. Based on his recommendations I used a .30-06 with 180 grn Winchester Silvertip. He always used Silvertips for deer and moose, neither of us reloaded but other hunters we knew who did recomended Hornady ammo.
huntingfish
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Quebec City
@Dogleg I was just using plain jane core-lokt bullets 180gr PSP. I had tried GMX bullets in it one year...was not happy with the results (moose shot but never recovered).
Before I decided to pull the trigger on a 300 wm, I was going to try premium bullets on that 30-06. Its been a great rifle and has killed it's fair share of moose!
Before I decided to pull the trigger on a 300 wm, I was going to try premium bullets on that 30-06. Its been a great rifle and has killed it's fair share of moose!
I was actually asking more about the velocity you were getting with your 30-06; because my .300s typically out-run my 30-06s to the the tune of 450 fps.
On the other hand I’m not surprised by the poor showing you got with the mono bullets. The Coreloct is a good bullet at 30-06 speed and moderate range.
huntingfish
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Quebec City
I've personally had a bad experience with a GMX bullet (as mentioned in earlier post). Not only did I find that the on game performance was bad, the tip also got banged up in my mag.
So what about the GMX shot at the moose made you think it was the bullet's fault you lost the animal? I actually think that a GMX from a .30-06 put into the right spot, would stop a moose fairly competently.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I think that using the death of the animal as a metric for efficacy of the bullet is somewhat simplistic. Yes, ultimately we are trying to kill the animal. But is that the sum total of what we are doing? I don't believe so. If a bullet that is too lightly constructed (or too heavily, for that matter) is used and that results in an animal traveling a significant distance, or suffering for an extended period, do we really want to consider that bullet as having been effective? If, assuming proper shot placement, you have to follow a moose for a day because you only managed a single lung hit and when you found the animal the meat had started to bone sour, was the bullet really effective? I can't imagine an ethical hunter agreeing that it was appropriate. Certainly, under ideal circumstances, almost any bullet will kill an animal. But do the animals not deserve a quick and, as much as possible, painless death? To that end why not tailor your bullet and cartridge choice to the game pursued and the distances you expect the shot to be taken at? I have a great load using the 140gr Ballistic Tip for my 7mm Wby that I wouldn't hesitate to use on pronghorns or even deer, so long as I could plan my shots properly. But I wouldn't want to take a quartering to shot on an elk with that bullet...it would be ugly. In fact, I hit a whitetail doe using just that combination at around 250 yards. But my shot was, as I usually do, a little too close to the shoulder which resulted in an inordinate and unacceptable amount of damaged meat. Certainly, that is my fault. I should have known that the bullet was more frangible and therefore should have held further into the ribs to avoid any damage to the shoulder. But had I been shooting a better bullet (meaning more ruggedly constructed) the years of muscle memory relating to shot placement would have been just fine. Also, had the shot been a sub-100 yard presentation requiring a quicker shot how much more damage would there have been with that lightly constructed bullet screaming into the target at barely under the 3350 fps muzzle velocity? In that case I would think that we could all agree (silly, I know, to think we could get consensus among gun nuts) that the bullet was not the right choice for the application, therefore inducing a bullet failure.
The fault lies not necessarily with the bullet, but the failure is still the fault of the bullet.
There are few 'bad' bullets, just bad applications. Operate in the performance window of the bullet is the key.
An example would be an ELD-X 150gn for a 7mm-08, but in a 280ai a 175gn ELD-X. The 150 is good from muzzle to 500m at 7mm-08 velocities. The 175 is good from ~100m out to ~650m at 280ai velocities.
For reliable performance at high velocities then a NP, NAB , mono-metal, or some other bonded bullet.
An example would be an ELD-X 150gn for a 7mm-08, but in a 280ai a 175gn ELD-X. The 150 is good from muzzle to 500m at 7mm-08 velocities. The 175 is good from ~100m out to ~650m at 280ai velocities.
For reliable performance at high velocities then a NP, NAB , mono-metal, or some other bonded bullet.
dgradinaru
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- British Columbia
Several years ago i was using my 6.5x55 with serria 140gr gamekings at a modest 2650 fps. On broadside lung shots the bullet did great but the moment it dealt with quartering shots or shoulder bone it would disintegrate on impact. I dealt with a big bodied buck @ 300 yards and on a front quartering shot it made a flesh wound, had to track the buck and finish it off 15 mins after the first shot. At that time i didn't think the bullet had problems and thought it was a factor of poor shot placement. (Had i used a partition or accubond im sure the shot would have been lethal). The following hunting season i was at it again and bumped into a spooked 5 point muley. 50 Yard shot with the buck trotting away. First shot with some lead let off. The buck dropped like a sack of rocks but to my surprise it got back up and went its way. Good thing for snow, i was able to track it and catch up finishing it off. When skinning the buck i found that the shoulder was hit but the bullet didn't penetrate and blew up on impact. Never again will i use sierra for my 6.5's. They are accurate bullets but to fragile for my liking. The pro hunters are far better and I've had good experience with them.
These days i find myself buying and using bonded, a-frame, and mono bullets. Certain cartridges at certain velocities still get cup and core bullets that have proven themselves like the interlock and speer hot-cor.
These days i find myself buying and using bonded, a-frame, and mono bullets. Certain cartridges at certain velocities still get cup and core bullets that have proven themselves like the interlock and speer hot-cor.
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I hit a moose at 105 yds with a 154gr SST in 7mm rem. Bullet did the job but meat damage was a bit excessive and the bullet exploded.
Started using 170gr Norma Oryx (bonded) and im liking those. Minimal damage and nice clean thru's, often DRT.
Im going to be trying a .338 Fed out this year with 180gr AB's, and im hoping my .257 Wby will be done, and with that it'll be a mix of 120gr NP and 120 A frames.
I wont hesistate on moose with a good broadside shot with the .257
Started using 170gr Norma Oryx (bonded) and im liking those. Minimal damage and nice clean thru's, often DRT.
Im going to be trying a .338 Fed out this year with 180gr AB's, and im hoping my .257 Wby will be done, and with that it'll be a mix of 120gr NP and 120 A frames.
I wont hesistate on moose with a good broadside shot with the .257
I have used Hornady bullets with reasonable success [with one exception], but stay away from the Interlock in any magnum.
The Interbond is a great bullet, and the GMX, being monometal, is good as long as velocity is up there.
I had a 270, 140 grain SPBT Interlock from a 270 Winchester blow up completely on a whitetail deer's ribs [c. 80 yards]
That bullet started at just over 3000 with the load I was using, and no part of the bullet reached the vitals.
Fortunately for me [and the deer] he only ran a few yards and stopped, seemed a bit dazed, and I was able to give him
a second shot, at which he dropped immediately. He had a large surface wound from the first shot, but the second was
a passthrough. Maybe just a faulty bullet, but it put up caution flags for sure. My 270 now gets the 140 Accubond.
For my 257 Weatherby, the only bullets I load and use are: 120 Partition, 120 A-Frame, 100 TTSX.
In my 6.5x55AI, the 142 LRAB seems to work well, but 2 animals is hardly a big enough number to assess properly.
My 8mm Rem Mag gets the 200 or 220 A-Frame, with the 196 Oryx a tentative candidate, we'll see. Dave.
The Interbond is a great bullet, and the GMX, being monometal, is good as long as velocity is up there.
I had a 270, 140 grain SPBT Interlock from a 270 Winchester blow up completely on a whitetail deer's ribs [c. 80 yards]
That bullet started at just over 3000 with the load I was using, and no part of the bullet reached the vitals.
Fortunately for me [and the deer] he only ran a few yards and stopped, seemed a bit dazed, and I was able to give him
a second shot, at which he dropped immediately. He had a large surface wound from the first shot, but the second was
a passthrough. Maybe just a faulty bullet, but it put up caution flags for sure. My 270 now gets the 140 Accubond.
For my 257 Weatherby, the only bullets I load and use are: 120 Partition, 120 A-Frame, 100 TTSX.
In my 6.5x55AI, the 142 LRAB seems to work well, but 2 animals is hardly a big enough number to assess properly.
My 8mm Rem Mag gets the 200 or 220 A-Frame, with the 196 Oryx a tentative candidate, we'll see. Dave.
I am inclined to agree with that observation. Any issues I have had with C&C bullets has been when I tried to push them past the 2900/3000 fps point.
Shortly after the introduction of the 7mm Rem Mag, Remington started selling bullets specifically designed for that chambering. I have a couple of boxes of
the 150 grain variety here. They are plainly marked "7mm Rem Mag" They are a very tough C&C bullet, but long obsolete now.
The new cor-lokts are not nearly as tough.
Since the Partition works soooo well, even at reduced velocities, I do not use C&C bullets much anymore. Still [because of poor variety]using them in the 303
British and 6.5x54 MS. WE are truly fortunate in our time. We have a huge variety of Bonded and well constructed hunting bullets.
That is why I believe there is little excuse for using a target or match bullet to hunt with. Dave.
