Is a 45-70 a 'big bore'?

[Mystic Precision]

and the real tool of the elephant hunter,

Wasn't that the 275 Rigby???

As with most things that discuss dangerous game, there is an ENORMOUS difference between a hunting and stopping cartridge/rifle.

Clients should use hunting cartridges that they can hit something with. Preferably someplace that is considered fatal.

PH should use stopping cartridges as the client just might screw up and this cannon separates cleaning underwear off client vs wiping client off African grasslands.

Jerry

 

[Gibbs505]

Wasn't that the 275 Rigby???

Some, but most of them were not bell, and suffered accordingly!

As with most things that discuss dangerous game, there is an ENORMOUS difference between a hunting and stopping cartridge/rifle.

Clients should use hunting cartridges that they can hit something with. Preferably someplace that is considered fatal.

PH should use stopping cartridges as the client just might screw up and this cannon separates cleaning underwear off client vs wiping client off African grasslands.
Jerry

I agree completely. That is one reason that the 375H&H is recommended by the PH's to their client's. Most clients can learn to shoot it well!

 

[K98]

404 Jeffery, 400 grn bullet, 22125 fps,

How many foot pounds of energy does that produce???!!! What's the barrel life like? I shudder to think of the recoil!!!

 

[gitrdun]

I think that Amphibious, very early on in this thread best described "bore". There is no relationship between shot placement, casing length , powder capacity etc. and "bore". Bore is diameter, period. So I clearly understand the meaning, but at what diameter do they become big, that's a matter of opinion. IMHO a 45-70 "is" big bore. Maybe we could ask Chuck?

 

[steve22595]

Another interesting commentary:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp

 

[NAA]

Is a .45-70 a big bore?

Yes!

File that under "N" for "no $hit sherlock"....

 

[Gibbs505]

How many foot pounds of energy does that produce???!!! What's the barrel life like? I shudder to think of the recoil!!!

Fixed, we don't get to use pulse guns here!

 

[prosper]

Another interesting commentary:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp

That's been pretty thoroughly debunked, actually. Basically, it's a phenomena of the wet newspaper medium. On real game, it doesn't work that way. This has been tested on elephant carcasses and on real live elephant in africa, and it's just not true. What IS true, though, is that flat nosed bullets tend to penetrate much farther than round nosed ones

 

[Win94]

I don't know about "bigbore" but my 4 year old daughter calls it the cannon.

 

[manbearpig]

wasnt there some crazy american than tried to prove he could take any game on the planet with a .22-250? or was that a .220 swift?

pretty funny either way. im sure given enough determination and luck you could kill any game on the planet with a grapefruit spoon... doesnt necessarily mean its a smart idea

i voted yes, and IMO a .45-70 can take any game in North America. if i ever went on safari id want a little more cowbell... those guys have been using really big bores for a long time, id like to think its because they know better and its not just marketing

 

[Win94]

The popularity and resurgence of he .45-70 in the last 5 years has to tell you something. The Guidegun has probably done alot for the renewed popularity.

 

[SMITH45]

Hi!
My little word. Do you tried a Ruger #1S , the older model that had the longer throat!!, I don't know if we can call that a big bore, but with a good mix of powder and bullet, this type of load is nearing the .458WMag... I don't think I will ever have the chance to hunt Africa and the big five, but a Grizzly or a moose will certainly be able to tell you that a max load of 45-70 is a big bore...

For north america, the 45-70 in a modern rifle and a reloader who know what he is doing, that's a BIG BORE

 

[Win 38-55]

That's been pretty thoroughly debunked, actually. Basically, it's a phenomena of the wet newspaper medium. On real game, it doesn't work that way. This has been tested on elephant carcasses and on real live elephant in africa, and it's just not true. What IS true, though, is that flat nosed bullets tend to penetrate much farther than round nosed ones

It certainly has not been debunked. In fact, independent tests have confirmed that, in a fluid medium, such as flesh and organs, the slower bullets tend to penetrate significantly more than the faster ones. This was done with the 458 Mag in an article I read recently. The original velocity was about 200 fps faster than the current ones. I believe it was Elmer Keith that convinced Winchester that they would get better penetration if they reduced the velocity. Turns out he was right and the cartridge is now a much better performer under current velocities than it was when it first came out.

I voted 'yes'. I've owned 5 different 45-70's and reload my own. I would have no reservations taking my 45-70 to Africa. The mindset nowdays seems to think that only very fast mag/ultra mag cartridges are adequate for big game. I hunt with old Winchesters using slow, heavy cast bullets. I have been very impressed at the sheer bulldozing power of a heavy, slow-moving 45-70 bullet. My hunting loads vary between 1,350 fps and 1,400 fps, depending upon the bullet I'm using (gas check or plain base). Some of you fellers need an education as to what a slow, heavy bullet will do compared to what the exact same bullet will do at a higher speed. There was a time when I thought I needed to crank a 420 grain bullet out of my 45-70 at 2,000 fps. Now I simply do not see the point.

P.S. if you insist on 45-70 loads that duplicate 458 Mag loads, use the Winchester/Miroku Extra light, or the Browning/Miroku SRC.

 

[B]

90 to 5 I think CGN has spoken....

 

[Andy]

Yes, the 45/70 is "big bore" by virtue of its 45 cal bore diameter, but please stop the crap that it is anywhere near the 458 WM in performance. Whatever load and pressure you choose, the 458 WM will outdo the 45/70 by 200-300 fps, and that's a crap-load of energy. Show me a 45/70 that pushes a 350gr at 2500 fps at 50K psi.

 

[BCWILL]

Yes, the 45/70 is "big bore" by virtue of its 45 cal bore diameter, but please stop the crap that it is anywhere near the 458 WM in performance. Whatever load and pressure you choose, the 458 WM will outdo the 45/70 by 200-300 fps, and that's a crap-load of energy. Show me a 45/70 that pushes a 350gr at 2500 fps at 50K psi.

Exactly........I was getting 2600 fps from my 458 with Horny 350 Grainers
Try that with a 45-70 and you'll probably be picking little bits of brass out of your Face
True the 45-70 is close to the 458......like a 30-30 is close to a 300 Magnum

If the 45-70 isn't a "Big Bore" what is it ????????

 

[manbearpig]

It certainly has not been debunked. In fact, independent tests have confirmed that, in a fluid medium, such as flesh and organs, the slower bullets tend to penetrate significantly more than the faster ones.

ballistic tests with shotgun slugs seem to support this too:
the remington reduced recoil 1oz slug penetrates almost twice as far (30") into ballistic gelatin than does the same slug with a full power powder load.

however: the site that made this discovery when testing different shotgun loads in ballistic gelatin immediately began touting the reduced recoil slug as the best thing since sliced bread... but if i recall correctly they ran into some issues with it on actual animal trials and they rescinded their recommendation and specifically stated that they do *not* recommend it on dangerous game.

im pretty sure this was the site. these are gelatin tests, not field trials, so to be taken with a grain of salt as they dont account for hide thickness, anatomy, etc. still interesting to see their results for different loads.

http://w ww.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_rifle.html

 

[manbearpig]

btw im not on either side of this debate - just throwing that link out as more info for discussion

 

[Gatehouse]

It certainly has not been debunked. In fact, independent tests have confirmed that, in a fluid medium, such as flesh and organs, the slower bullets tend to penetrate significantly more than the faster ones. This was done with the 458 Mag in an article I read recently. The original velocity was about 200 fps faster than the current ones. I believe it was Elmer Keith that convinced Winchester that they would get better penetration if they reduced the velocity. Turns out he was right and the cartridge is now a much better performer under current velocities than it was when it first came out.

.

It really depends on bullet construction. We have come some ways since Elmer Keith was alive...

 

[Gibbs505]

It certainly has not been debunked. In fact, independent tests have confirmed that, in a fluid medium, such as flesh and organs, the slower bullets tend to penetrate significantly more than the faster ones. This was done with the 458 Mag in an article I read recently. The original velocity was about 200 fps faster than the current ones. I believe it was Elmer Keith that convinced Winchester that they would get better penetration if they reduced the velocity. Turns out he was right and the cartridge is now a much better performer under current velocities than it was when it first came out.

The problem with the 458, as origionally loaded was, when the cartridge did fire, pressure and sticky extraction. Not what you wanted when the cape buff of you dreams was now your nightmare and coming to pay you a visit! Also with the sticky exraction went the other problem of jamed rifles!

This is why Winchester reduced the loading. Not for better pentration. That was already established by the british with a 500 grain bullet at about 2150 fps. it worked.