Short Barrel Shotguns - Legalities and History

0faustus0

0faustus0

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
44   0   0
Location
Off the river, on top of the hill
Last edited:
Thanks for the new thread. Guess your answer in the other short shotgun thread answers my question; a 12.5" factory barrel (with choke) on a Remington TAC-14 will be too short to be non-restricted with a pistol grip but possibly long enough with a raptor grip, if that grip gets it over the 660mm minimum OAL. Not sure they make a raptor grip that long... I may have to carve one. Got some nice boxwood which would do the trick, in fact I have enough in that chunk that I could make a matching foregrip. Might look neat, the bright yellow-ish boxwood contrasting well with the dark grey of the 870. Great, another rainy day project...
 
0faustus0 said:
A new thread for all the legal questions about short barreled shotguns .... like the Tac-qr and the Shockwave .... and a place to discuss the history of those firearms ....

A thread created for Iloverevolvers ....
Click to expand...

Hey, I told you, I shot my wad (puns definitely intended) in that "other" thread. But since you put the onus on me to continue pumping away, I'll try to "get up" my interest and give it one more shot before I'm completely drained.
0faustus0 said:
Iloverevolvers, lol .... but yes Mea Culpa.

Here is my understanding .... up to recently the exportation of 14" barrels from the us was very restricted.
Yes, you were able to get 14" barrels in Canada ... but in limited supply and I suspect imported through some loopholes or over third countries. But these restrictions have been lifted by the Trump administration .... and now we are seeing lots and lots of 14" barreled shotguns being imported from the US.
Click to expand...
To me, that's not very encouraging. So before Agent Orange (AO) a 14" barrel was perfectly legal to install on a pump shotgun (but difficult to find and import) as long as the resulting shotgun's overall length was more than 660mm, correct?

0faustus0 said:
The Shockwave and the Tac-14 were designed for the US market .... firearms laws in the US also have a stipulation for 26" overall length .... and I belive our 26" law was more or less copied or "inspired" by the US law ....
Click to expand...
Yeah, there's a big surprise.

The last thing I want is for our illustrious, illogical leader to "stand up" to the AO regime, and please gun haters even more, by modifying those two aforementioned sections to "add on" pump-action center-fire firearms.

Do you have any speculation about why Mossberg also markets a Shockwave with an 18.5" barrel in Canada -- perhaps for those real men want to shoot their wads and pellets and slugs out of a longer "barrel"?

(BTW, I'd like to give my wife a genuine Shockwave, but it's the overall length that's my problem.:))
 
The Mossberg Shockwave with 18.5" barrel?

Here is my wild guess .... at the time the 14" barrel version could not be exported from the US ... but the Canadian market wanted a Shockwave ... But an 18" barrel version could be exported from the US and brought into Canada. And that is I believe what happened .... This 18" Shockwave might have been just a product for the export market ....
 
Last edited:
0faustus0 said:
The Mossberg Shockwave with 18.5" barre?

Here is my wild guess .... at the time the 14" barrel version could not be exported from the US ... but the Canadian market wanted a Shockwave ... But an 18" barrel version could be exported from the US and brougjt into Canada. And that is I believe what happened .... This 18" Shocwave might have been just a product for the export market ....
Click to expand...
I believe that I've seen the Shockwave 18.5" sold in Canada, but maybe I was looking at the so-called JIC models. Anyway, Mossberg does manufacture an 18.5" Shockwave:
https://www.mossberg.com/product/590-shockwave-7-shot-50639/

To be more serious, I would indeed like to buy my wife a Shockwave with 14" barrel and install one of those rubber inserts in the loading port that allows Federal shorty shells to be fired and reliably fed, but I don't want it to be suddenly be re-classified as either banned or restricted next week. I've already got one useless firearm and I don't want to start a collection. I have an RPAL, but I do not want to deal with the hassle of owning a formerly NR, now instantly-R firearm, either. The rub is that our safe only allows a maximum length of around 30", possibly 31" with that curved raptor grip, but I'd have to actually try to fit it in there to know for sure before buying. Even though I know I do not have to, I have always stored NR firearms in our neutron-star-heavy safe and I want to continue to do that. Maybe as time goes on we'll come to know with more or less certainty what the final classification will be for that amazing 14" Shockwave, which seem more to me like a really big, incredibly powerful handgun than a long gun. I believe that I could grow to love that shotgun as much as Iloverevolvers (which I won't own because they are Restricted).

Edit: The 18.5" version is indeed sold in Canada at one of the CGN forum advertisers:
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/mossberg-590-shockwave-12ga-3-18-5-barrel.html
Notice the overall length of 31", which is pretty tempting.
 
Last edited:
Mossberg makes the 18.5" "Shockwave" because the 14" are illegal in certain states. It has nothing to do with Canadian laws.

14" with a raptor grip is non restricted on every pump action I know of.

For a straight pistol grip to be non restricted you need a barrel length of around 16". 16" is uncomon, so it's better to go with a 18.5" barrel if you want a straight grip.

Semi auto centerfires need an 18.5" barrel to be non restricted.

That's really all there is to know with our current laws.



Iloverevolvers said:
I believe that I've seen the Shockwave 18.5" sold in Canada, but maybe I was looking at the so-called JIC models. Anyway, Mossberg does manufacture an 18.5" Shockwave:
https://www.mossberg.com/product/590-shockwave-7-shot-50639/

To be more serious, I would indeed like to buy my wife a Shockwave with 14" barrel and install one of those rubber inserts in the loading port that allows Federal shorty shells to be fired and reliably fed, but I don't want it to be suddenly be re-classified as either banned or restricted next week. I've already got one useless firearm and I don't want to start a collection. I have an RPAL, but I do not want to deal with the hassle of owning a formerly NR, now instantly-R firearm, either. The rub is that our safe only allows a maximum length of around 30", possibly 31" with that curved raptor grip, but I'd have to actually try to fit it in there to know for sure before buying. Even though I know I do not have to, I have always stored NR firearms in our neutron-star-heavy safe and I want to continue to do that. Maybe as time goes on we'll come to know with more or less certainty what the final classification will be for that amazing 14" Shockwave, which seem more to me like a really big, incredibly powerful handgun than a long gun. I believe that I could grow to love that shotgun as much as Iloverevolvers (which I won't own because they are Restricted).

Edit: The 18.5" version is indeed sold in Canada at one of the CGN forum advertisers:
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/mossberg-590-shockwave-12ga-3-18-5-barrel.html
Notice the overall length of 31", which is pretty tempting.
Click to expand...
What if they ban anything shorter than 20" barrels and pistol grips? You're better off just sticking to standard off the rack bird guns if you're worried about legalities changing, or at least have a spare long barrel if you're worried. The Shockwaves and Tac14 are pretty cheap now so if you really want them, now's the time to go for it. I would avoid the mini shells. I have had a bunch of women shoot my raptor grip 14" 870 and it's manageable with low brass birdshot and 2.75" 9 pellet buck.
 
Last edited:
Vertebrae said:
Mossberg makes the 18.5" "Shockwave" because the 14" are illegal in certain states. It has nothing to do with Canadian laws.

14" with a raptor grip is non restricted on every pump action I know of.

For a straight pistol grip to be non restricted you need a barrel length of around 16". 16" is uncomon, so it's better to go with a 18.5" barrel if you want a straight grip.

Semi auto centerfires need an 18.5" barrel to be non restricted.

That's really all there is to know with our current laws.




What if they ban anything shorter than 20" barrels and pistol grips? You're better off just sticking to standard off the rack bird guns if you're worried about legalities changing, or at least have a spare long barrel if you're worried. The Shockwaves and Tac14 are pretty cheap now so if you really want them, now's the time to go for it. I would avoid the mini shells. I have had a bunch of women shoot my raptor grip 14" 870 and it's manageable with low brass birdshot and 2.75" 9 pellet buck.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice and your ammo preferences. What I've made bold in your post is exactly why we bought a, for lack of a better expression, defensive-style O/U shotgun with a 20" barrel a few weeks ago (which is still un-fired). The gun splits in half in a snap and the three resulting pieces fit in our safe very easily. I like this gun, but my 70+ year old, short-stature wife has difficulty with its weight and length of pull. I suppose I could shorten its wood stock, but I'd rather not because then it'll be short for me and there is no adjustable stock available, to my knowledge. (I've installed a Mike's stretchy shell-holder on the stock, but I'd really like to have more than two quick shots available "when it really counts", which is where the Shockwave comes in. This is IMO a good reason for the Federal shortys -- more in the magazine and more manageable recoil for a woman of my wife's age.)

Again, as the months roll by and, hopefully, not many more guns are banned, I think that people who are interested in the 14" shockwave will feel more confident that their purchase will remain NR.

Thanks again.
 
Honestly it’s a non issue, the Shockwave or Tac14 isn’t marked or stamped any different than a 590 or 870 with a full length stock. So buy one enjoy it and if they change the classification on them put a full stock on it and it’s a normal shotgun again, you can get shorter lop or youth length buttstocks for both if you had to.

I won’t live in fear over the potential prohibition of short barrel shotguns, I’ll never hand in anything anyway in the event of future changes. Not registered equals no body knows who owns anything, it could’ve been sold or given away years ago. Good luck finding every 870 or 500/590 etc etc out there, guns took a long sleep during the LGR and they will do so again during this whole oic fiasco.
 
Vertebrae said:
Mossberg makes the 18.5" "Shockwave" because the 14" are illegal in certain states. It has nothing to do with Canadian laws.

14" with a raptor grip is non restricted on every pump action I know of.

For a straight pistol grip to be non restricted you need a barrel length of around 16". 16" is uncomon, so it's better to go with a 18.5" barrel if you want a straight grip.

Semi auto centerfires need an 18.5" barrel to be non restricted.

That's really all there is to know with our current laws.




What if they ban anything shorter than 20" barrels and pistol grips? You're better off just sticking to standard off the rack bird guns if you're worried about legalities changing, or at least have a spare long barrel if you're worried. The Shockwaves and Tac14 are pretty cheap now so if you really want them, now's the time to go for it. I would avoid the mini shells. I have had a bunch of women shoot my raptor grip 14" 870 and it's manageable with low brass birdshot and 2.75" 9 pellet buck.
Click to expand...

No. Mossberg makes (made) 18.5" Shockwave for export because until recently they could not export 14" shotguns for commercial use. Normally shotguns in the US with barrels less than 18.5" were considered "Short barrelled firearms" and required registration and a $200 tax stamp. Recently the ATF designated the short barrelled shotguns with a pistol grip "any other weapons" allowing sales in most if not all states with a $5 tax stamp. Changes to US export requirements allowed all shotguns to be exported regardless of US classification.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf
 
If your wife is struggling with weight and size of a coach style ou look for a 410 shockwave. Mossberg makes them and so do charles daly.
I gotta say a 70+ year old lil lady with a raptor gripped shotgun is just awesome.
 
Good article, Ofaustus0.

In say the past 20 years, have there been any NR-classified firearms that have suddenly been re-classified as Restricted? Yes, NRs have very recently been re-classified as Prohibited, but have any NRs been re-classified as Restricted? (After all, even the infamous Ruger mini-14 rifles were not made prohibited until recently. I'd have figured that they would have been made R, as a one-off, if necessary, long before being made P.)

While I'm typing, what is the foundational logic behind handguns being made R? It must be concealability, right? At some point, especially from what that article states about the 25"-long shorty 870 --
"One of the marshals’ requirements of the Witness Protection 870 was that it be concealable under a jacket."
-- classifiers might plunk the Shockwave in the category of a handgun. I think that it would be difficult to conceal something 26" long under anything shorter than a long raincoat or slicker, but others may disagree. It would certainly be very difficult under summer shorts (I speak from at least some experience on this ........hint: I wear size 17 shoes.:))).
 
If you want to talk about interesting history, the pistol gripped 8.5" Dlask 870's were originally considered non restricted as they came that way, were a manual action, and didn't fold/collapse/etc.
 
0faustus0 said:
Are you looking for a "restricted" firearm? 8.5" grizzly with folding stock would be a "Restricted" firearm.

My Tac-14 with a 14" barrel just barely makes it over 26" inches (overall length) ... and which makes it a Non-restricted firearm.
Click to expand...

B said:
Actually regarding shotguns if it is made that way it doesn't matter. Lots of guys were rocking pistol grips on their 8.5" Grizzlies before the RCMP lab said they consider it restricted despite the law clearly saying otherwise. You cannot operate a pump shotgun with one hand!
Click to expand...

0faustus0 said:
B, can you please clarify what you are saying there?

As far as I know, the firearms act is pretty clear .... overall length of 26" (660 mm) and over and the gun is non restricted ... anything under 26" is Restricted, meaning you need an RPAL ... and you can only shoot it at a range ... and you need an ATT to transport it .... And if you get caught without those .... you are risking a criminal record ....

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms
Click to expand...

B said:
Someone with a better memory than me will come along eventually to clarify everything but once upon a time, perhaps still, Canada ammo provided a pistol grip with their super shorties. This was because with regards to shotguns only the act can be interpreted as allowing shotguns of any OAL as long as it was made that way.

The RCMP lab did not like that loophole so they declared that any such shotgun in such a configuration would then be considered a handgun. The act again clearly says a handgun is a weapon that can be used with one hand among other stuff... Anyone with even basic knowledge of firearms knows you cannot effectively operate a pump shotgun with one hand. Not to mention such devices are brutal to fire even with birdshot again making one handed use nearly impossible.
Click to expand...


Does anybody know what B is talking about?
 
Last edited:
Well, originally the sub 26" OAL shotguns were NR if they didn't fold or collapse. Same reasoning that gave you non-restricted mare's legs at 24ish inch OAL.. It does not say that sub 26 = restricted, it says:

84 (1) In this Part,
...
"restricted firearm" means

(a) a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm,
(b) a firearm that

(i) is not a prohibited firearm,
(ii) has a barrel less than 470 mm in length, and
(iii) is capable of discharging centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic manner,

(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or
(d) a firearm of any other kind that is prescribed to be a restricted firearm;
Click to expand...

However, the SFSS then became of the opinion that the very short mare's legs (9" barrel versions) and the pistol grip shotguns under a certain length (that they never really came out and defined) were actually handguns, and thus restricted.
 
0faustus0 said:
Does anybody know what B is talking about?
Click to expand...

I think he is saying that if manufactured in the short configuration the same rules that apply to the mares leg apply to short shotguns.

The firearms classification is not consistent or applied uniformly with mares legs either as the shortest barrel option is restricted although I do not believe that is classified correctly under the spirit of the legislation
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom