Short Barrel Shotguns - Legalities and History

Something just hit me. The Shockwave was introduced into the Canadian firearms market only a relatively few months ago, correct? If I am correct, that means that the NR classification (on the FRT, presumably) took place during the period of time that was just shortly before or quite possibly during Justine & Co's "decision-making-process" on what firearms were and, more importantly to me, what firearms were not going to be re-classified to prohibited.

I would not be a bit surprised if Mossiberg in some way, shape or form contacted Canadian firearms regulators and told them of their desire to export Shockwaves into the Canadian market......................... and those regulators almost certainly told Mossberg "OK for import; we'll classify them Non-Restricted". Once again with feeling, this was only a few months before Justine issued his OIC diktat on May 1. Are Canadian regulators/classifiers now, after just having given the Shockwave an NR classification, going to suddenly, inexplicably re-classify them to either R or prohibited? I doubt it, not without looking like complete idiots, anyway.
 
The biggest joke about short barreled shotguns, is that the barrel has to be produced from factory and stamped to be a certain length, and we cannot just cut everything down to 8.5 inches

These laws are just messed
 
I just discovered something that more shotgun-experienced folks have probably known about for years -- Mossberg's Flex system. I just happened to run into a video of a man installing the Flex adapter on an old, rather beat up looking 500, I think. After installing the adapter, he installed a really nice tactical stock with integral pistol-grip. He was able to install and take off the stock very, very easily, leaving only the adapter attached to the receiver.

I mention this because the Shockwave has a typical 590 reciever. If I were to install that adapter on a Shockwave, to use that tactical stock, when I want to put the gun in our safe, I could instantly remove the stock and the Shockwave would then be short enough to put in the safe along one of its walls, rather than diagonally from corner to corner. At first I was rather excited about this possibility, but then I went to the Mossberg site where Mossberg states that the Flex adapter is incompatible with the 590 Shockwave.

Is Mossberg's statement true, or is there some legality-issue here (specifically, total length when only the Flex pistol-grip MIGHT be used) that forces Mossberg to make that statement?

Thanks.
 
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Iloverevolvers said:
I just discovered something that more shotgun-experienced folks have probably known about for years -- Mossberg's Flex system. I just happened to run into a video of a man installing the Flex adapter on an old, rather beat up looking 500, I think. After installing the adapter, he installed a really nice tactical stock with integral hand-grip. He was able to install and take off the stock very, very easily, leaving only the adapter attached to the receiver.

I mention this because the Shockwave has a typical 590 reciever. If I were to install that adapter on a Shockwave, to use that tactical stock, when I want to put the gun in our safe, I could instantly remove the stock and the Shockwave would then be short enough to put in the safe along one of its walls, rather than diagonally from corner to corner. At first I was rather excited about this possibility, but then I went to the Mossberg site where Mossberg states that the Flex adapter is incompatible with the 590 Shockwave.

Is Mossberg's statement true, or is there some legality-issue here (specifically, total length when only the Flex hand-grip MIGHT be used) that forces Mossberg to make that statement?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

remington mcs Is similar but for 870
 
Iloverevolvers said:
I just discovered something that more shotgun-experienced folks have probably known about for years -- Mossberg's Flex system. I just happened to run into a video of a man installing the Flex adapter on an old, rather beat up looking 500, I think. After installing the adapter, he installed a really nice tactical stock with integral pistol-grip. He was able to install and take off the stock very, very easily, leaving only the adapter attached to the receiver.

I mention this because the Shockwave has a typical 590 reciever. If I were to install that adapter on a Shockwave, to use that tactical stock, when I want to put the gun in our safe, I could instantly remove the stock and the Shockwave would then be short enough to put in the safe along one of its walls, rather than diagonally from corner to corner. At first I was rather excited about this possibility, but then I went to the Mossberg site where Mossberg states that the Flex adapter is incompatible with the 590 Shockwave.

Is Mossberg's statement true, or is there some legality-issue here (specifically, total length when only the Flex pistol-grip MIGHT be used) that forces Mossberg to make that statement?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/page-20.html#h-117002


--------------- Quote ---------------
restricted firearm means

...

(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise,

...

--------------- End Quote ---------------


And if you are talking about the legalities in the US .... here is a start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun#United_States
 
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Ironheart said:
The biggest joke about short barreled shotguns, is that the barrel has to be produced from factory and stamped to be a certain length, and we cannot just cut everything down to 8.5 inches

These laws are just messed
Click to expand...

Niether my two Ithaca M87 Stakeout shotguns have any barrel length marking.
Also another seperate 14 inch factory Ithaca barrel.
No length marking on it either.
 
0faustus0 said:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/page-20.html#h-117002


--------------- Quote ---------------
restricted firearm means

...

(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise,

...

--------------- End Quote ---------------


And if you are talking about the legalities in the US .... here is a start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun#United_States
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link to the US regs. Wow, I guess Canadians are not the only ones jumping through legal hoops. As usual, pay the piper and you can ultimately get what you want.

Now to the Shockwave in Canada.

How would you interpret what I've made bold within the rest of the Canadian regulation?

I interpret it to mean that when the firearm is being transported to the range, it might be transported, for lack of a better expression, "taken down" -- as one might very well transport a Ruger 10/22 Takedown (or our new O/U shotgun), in two pieces that are both under 660mm. But when the gun reaches the firing line or field, prior to firing, the gun has to be "assembled" into its normal, "to be fired" configuration, which is longer than 660mm -- in this specific case either with the OEM Raptor being installed or the even-longer Flex non-folding tactical stock installed (but not the Flex pistol-grip-only, which would make the OAL weill under 660mm). Therefore, I think that the firearm would remain within the NR classification if I were to install the Flex adapter and the Flex tactical stock in Canada (but not in the US, without paying the mandatory legal extortion).

Do you think my interpretation is correct?

Can you see any reason why the Flex adapter would/should not technically fit a 590 Shockwave as opposed to other 590 models?

(FWIW, there is a person selling a very nice, very expensive customized 870 shorty in the Equipment Exchange shotgun section that has a 10" barrel, I think, and a fixed stock/brace. The gun has an OAL of just over 27" and is classified NR. So I must once again assume that the OAL is the ultimate determinant of NR or R classification, when it comes to firearms not semi-auto, anyway. Heh, I can imagine firearms with shorter and shorter barrels and the correspondingly longer and longer stocks. "How short can they go?", I'd be asking myself. Here would be the rare situation in which length of pull might decide barrel length........... to maintain the OAL at just over 660mm, anyway.:))
 
Iloverevolvers,

my interpretation is that as long as you cannot fire the disassembled gun ... and that the assembled gun is longer than 660 mm .... you are good.

However, if you are transporting a disassembled Shockwave with a Flex adapter ... and a Flex pistol-grip ... and a Flex longer stock .... all together .... well I believe that might end you up in front of a judge ... and how that one would go ... I don't know .... I only know I would not risk a criminal record.

-------

How short can it get for a 12ga? Have a look at this video ..... lol

 
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0faustus0 said:
Iloverevolvers,

my interpretation is that as long as you cannot fire the disassembled gun ... and that the assembled gun is longer than 660 mm .... you are good.

However, if you are transporting a disassembled Shockwave with a Flex adapter ... and a Flex pistol-grip ... and a Flex longer stock .... all together .... well I believe that might end you up in front of a judge ... and how that one would go ... I don't know .... I only know I would not risk a criminal record.

-------

How short can it get for a 12ga? Have a look at this video ..... lol

Click to expand...
What you warn about transporting disassembled may very well be correct, so best to transport the gun fully assembled, "ready to be fired". (Who in their right mind is going to fire a 590 without a grip or a stock? What would the positioning of the hands be?:))

Great video of the 12ga pistol. You couldn't pay me enough to fire that thing...................... well, maybe if it was a really big number.

BTW, I just stumbled upon the Mossberg 590 "Persuader" (don't you love these model names?) with a 14" barrel, full traditional-looking synthetic stock and an OAL of 34". Essentially it's a Shockwave with what I calculate to be about a 13" long stock (14" barrel + approximately 7" receiver + 13" stock). I could shorten the stock by, say, 5" and the OAL would be 29", which would fit corner to corner in our safe without removing anything. My wife would probably be happy with the length of pull and the security and comfort of having a stock against her shoulder when firing. Still easy to fire from the hip. I could adjust to a short LOP. (I could even buy a Raptor grip and have a fake Shockwave.) Anyway, something to consider.
 
I just wanted to confirm the conventional legal advice on installing a short-barrel has not changed. I have a Mossberg 500 that came with an 18.5" barrel which I swapped for a 14" barrel from Mossberg. My understanding is this is perfectly legal as long:

- The OAL remains 26" or greater. It is 32" OAL.
- The gun is neither semi-automatic nor fully automatic. It is a pump.
- The barrel came from the manufacturer at 14". It did.

I know this question has been asked before, but if you'd be so kind as to humour me it would be greatly appreciated. I ask because the NFA's advice suggests what I did is illegal.
 
Shooting Centre said:
No. Mossberg makes (made) 18.5" Shockwave for export because until recently they could not export 14" shotguns for commercial use. Normally shotguns in the US with barrels less than 18.5" were considered "Short barrelled firearms" and required registration and a $200 tax stamp. Recently the ATF designated the short barrelled shotguns with a pistol grip "any other weapons" allowing sales in most if not all states with a $5 tax stamp. Changes to US export requirements allowed all shotguns to be exported regardless of US classification.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf
Click to expand...

This not quite correct. Barrels under 18” with a pistol grip have always been considered AOW. The caveat is that it has to be manufactured that way, ie never had a full length buttstock installed. If you made one yourself (cut the barrel and stock) it would be an SBS and need the $200 tax stamp. The sporting shotgun manufacturers never tried to tap into the AOW market until recently. Prior to that they only marketed 14” barrels to LE and military. This is why, up until now, they’ve only been brought in sporadically. They just never made many 14” barrels and the US has also flip flopped on whether they can be exported over the years.

Wholesale Sports used to have 14” 590s with full length buttstocks in their catalogs. Definitely had them listed in 2002/2003.
 
Iloverevolvers said:
Something just hit me. The Shockwave was introduced into the Canadian firearms market only a relatively few months ago, correct? If I am correct, that means that the NR classification (on the FRT, presumably) took place during the period of time that was just shortly before or quite possibly during Justine & Co's "decision-making-process" on what firearms were and, more importantly to me, what firearms were not going to be re-classified to prohibited.

I would not be a bit surprised if Mossiberg in some way, shape or form contacted Canadian firearms regulators and told them of their desire to export Shockwaves into the Canadian market......................... and those regulators almost certainly told Mossberg "OK for import; we'll classify them Non-Restricted". Once again with feeling, this was only a few months before Justine issued his OIC diktat on May 1. Are Canadian regulators/classifiers now, after just having given the Shockwave an NR classification, going to suddenly, inexplicably re-classify them to either R or prohibited? I doubt it, not without looking like complete idiots, anyway.
Click to expand...

14” Mossbergs and Remingtons have been non-restricted in Canada for decades. They just weren’t easily available as they were an LE item. Some had birdhead grips so the FRT is by no means new. Now that they’re trying to capitalize on the AOW market south of the border availability has increased drastically.
 
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