Kill the moose to save the caribou?
- Thread starter IronNoggin
- Start date
IronNoggin
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Port Alberni, Vancouver Island
I would be "old enough" (now in my 60's) but was looking and working in another direction (fisheries) and missed what you note.
I strongly concur with your assessment.
Trying to manage the populations in Canada like those in Scandinavia is nothing but a Fool's Errand.
There are FAR to many divergent parameters to even contemplate doing so.
Likely that is a great contributor to the mess we find ourselves in today.
Thanks for the enlightenment - it is sincerely appreciated.
45 ACP: Bang On Sir.
The NDP goofs are very much attempting to strangle us out.
Many are recognizing that, and beginning to stand up to them.
Regards,
Matt
This is key. Some moose populations have less than 10% of calves live past 1 year. This is due to predator kill and the more calves you take the more you take away from predators. Moose calves are large easy targets to keep a large wolf pack fed and energetic enough to take down heard animals and faster ungulates like healthy deer.
The cows should be spared in any case, breeding females should always be protected for population growth.
I remember a program, on the radio i think, about caribou in b.c. salmo area and wolf culls were not helping a female can have dozens of pups throuout her breeding years and they quickly replace lost pack members. Wolves could only take down caribou reliably with lots of hunters, 8 or more usually, but moose calves go down with as little as one dog.
They opened up calve moose in the area and culled as many as possible and within that winter the wolf pack was starting to starve and broke up leaving the area.
It helped the area the wolves were in but they just move on to desroy a new one, wolf culls are needed at the same time. I think all the caribou were ironically wiped out a year later in an avalanche.
This presupposes that the calf you shoot wouldn't have survived the winter anyway. I don't think that's necessarily so. If you shoot a cow-calf that otherwise would have survived, you've eliminated all the calves that would have been born from that cow over it's lifetime.
Calves rarely starve or succomb to the elements thier 1st year. They are overwhelmingly killed by predators and killing them has a the effect of thinning them out qnd making it more difficult for those predators.
You cannot think of wild animals like cattle, with the more that aren't killed is more to survive later with unlimited food. Think of it like planting too many carrots in the same garden they compete for food and some thinning out helps them and is part of how they have survived for millennia. In both instances keep unwanted things from eating your harvest and it's the best.
Problem is, recruitment is way down in northern BC. Hunting the same area between Babine and Takla lakes for a number of consecutive years we saw mature bulls and cow numbers decrease slowly over about 10 years but noticeably less and less calves each year, none the last two years but more and more wolves each year and fewer hunters each year.There were bulls to breed the cows but no calves.The wolves were snapping the calves up before fall, winter survival became a moot point. The last two years there almost every day one of our party would hear or see wolves. Eventually all moose became very scarce, caribou were long gone, we gave up on the area. Most of the northern half of BC is like that now.
While I think that the very idea of what the province is proposing is insane I can understand where their logic is coming from. What they are doing is making decisions based off of data that was collected from US populations of mountain/woodland caribou where it was found that a decrease in moose population did help to bump caribou numbers. However this only works where there is a large enough population of moose to actually be able to sustain a drop in population.
Where this logic comes from is that caribou, moose tend to inhabit different elevations and by cutting off the lower food supply it would prevent the wolves from rising to the elevations that the caribou tend to inhabit. However this works only in theory up north since I have found wolf and various other predator tracks near the peaks of mountains that have no prey species except for goats. At the end of the day animals will go where ever they so please and all that we can do is manage them to the best of our ability and what the province is planing isn't it.
Hopefully we can have some decisions made in this province that involving wildlife that don't: pander to the city people who never have and never will see these animals or, effectively drive another population to dangerously low numbers or any other poorly made uninformed decisions.
Where this logic comes from is that caribou, moose tend to inhabit different elevations and by cutting off the lower food supply it would prevent the wolves from rising to the elevations that the caribou tend to inhabit. However this works only in theory up north since I have found wolf and various other predator tracks near the peaks of mountains that have no prey species except for goats. At the end of the day animals will go where ever they so please and all that we can do is manage them to the best of our ability and what the province is planing isn't it.
Hopefully we can have some decisions made in this province that involving wildlife that don't: pander to the city people who never have and never will see these animals or, effectively drive another population to dangerously low numbers or any other poorly made uninformed decisions.
IronNoggin
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Port Alberni, Vancouver Island
Village of Burns Lake council opposed to the cow moose and calf harvest
One of the major arguments from the supporters of banning the cow moose hunt is that the moose population is just now starting to recover but they believe it is still a long ways away from fully recovering. Rensby adds to this saying that their basic argument would be, “if moose and wolves are so intertwined that killing moose would save caribou from wolves, why is it that moose numbers have been going down all across the province along with caribou, while wolves continue to climb?” Rensby, like other supporters of his cause, want the province to focus just on predator management instead of opting for alternative prey management.
https://www.burnslakelakesdistrictnews.com/news/village-of-burns-lake-council-opposed-to-the-cow-moose-and-calf-harvest/
One of the major arguments from the supporters of banning the cow moose hunt is that the moose population is just now starting to recover but they believe it is still a long ways away from fully recovering. Rensby adds to this saying that their basic argument would be, “if moose and wolves are so intertwined that killing moose would save caribou from wolves, why is it that moose numbers have been going down all across the province along with caribou, while wolves continue to climb?” Rensby, like other supporters of his cause, want the province to focus just on predator management instead of opting for alternative prey management.
https://www.burnslakelakesdistrictnews.com/news/village-of-burns-lake-council-opposed-to-the-cow-moose-and-calf-harvest/
they are making decisions that will reduce hunter numbers by reducing overall availlability of game.
I will never accept the "science" behind what they are proposing.
I killed a calf moose in my early hunting days. In a GOS up in fort st james area.
The meat was tender but it was kinda grainy too. I never shoot a calf moose again unless I am starving, literally
What these idiots are trying to accomplish is to reduce hunter numbers by reducing the large game numbers in the province.
Make the wolves the target by putting a 100 dollar bounty (at least) on them and this will increase hunter effort for wolves.
I'd be out there every day if there was a bounty.
It's the smart thing to do but all they can come up with is Hey Let's Kill Off All The Moose..... fuggen stupid assclowns.
I will never accept the "science" behind what they are proposing.
I killed a calf moose in my early hunting days. In a GOS up in fort st james area.
The meat was tender but it was kinda grainy too. I never shoot a calf moose again unless I am starving, literally
What these idiots are trying to accomplish is to reduce hunter numbers by reducing the large game numbers in the province.
Make the wolves the target by putting a 100 dollar bounty (at least) on them and this will increase hunter effort for wolves.
I'd be out there every day if there was a bounty.
It's the smart thing to do but all they can come up with is Hey Let's Kill Off All The Moose..... fuggen stupid assclowns.
A few points missed in this topic:
1) Politicians do not use any science for their reasoning, they submit purely to the political pressure of the uneducated masses who do not hunt or live in the areas impacted by their decisions and political/emotional will and agendas;
2) Black bears eat more moose calves than even the wolves do, and bear numbers are also on the rise as many do not hunt bears like they did in the past - again a rise in predator populations;
3) Any place that has managed their game populations in a productive manner have done so by:
a) Managing their predators properly (mentioned above, and goes to this next point not discussed), and
b) Managing their game populations with a healthy bull;cow or buck;doe ratio - this means that older mature females should also be harvested on a regular basis to ensure that the male:female ratio remains balanced in healthy state.
It is easy enough to ensure that you are not harvesting a cow or doe that is still accompanied by a calf or fawn, it just takes more time to observe and ensure it is a lone, dry mature cow or doe - if a hunter does not take this care, nursing mothers will be taken, and if to early in the calf or fawns life cycle, they will be susceptible to easier predation when not in a herd environment. Later in the season (say November and December), the calves and fawns are starting to be weaned from their mothers milk and are better prepared to fend for themselves as they are older and stronger. When I have been in greater need of meat while hunting in the past (early 90's), I have opted for the second year calf moose, as the cow was most likely bred and would be producing another calf in the spring. Other than that, over the years, when harvesting a female moose, elk or deer, I have always taken the time to ensure I was harvesting the old, mature dry cow or doe before taking that shot.
For me, the main point here is maintaining a proper balance of predator and prey species, as well as a proper balance in the numbers of males and females in any given population, in order to realize healthy populations and good recruitment numbers.
Our moose populations here in northern BC have gone down by over 70% in the past 12 years, and the so called experts running our wildlife management have only exacerbated the problem with their changes in wildlife management, as have the politicians who make the orders, who know nothing about what they are doing and are incurring more wildlife conservation problems while trying to solve their political issues. There was a period of 5 years since 2010 that I hunted from August through to December in the South Peace region and did not even see a single bull moose; just cows and calves. I know they were there (found their tracks, droppings and rubs, and seen the calves), but they just weren't being seen. The hunting pressure here has been very high over the past 20 years and it shows, as many of the hunted species have gone nocturnal, and are not seen as often or in the numbers that they used to be seen.
1) Politicians do not use any science for their reasoning, they submit purely to the political pressure of the uneducated masses who do not hunt or live in the areas impacted by their decisions and political/emotional will and agendas;
2) Black bears eat more moose calves than even the wolves do, and bear numbers are also on the rise as many do not hunt bears like they did in the past - again a rise in predator populations;
3) Any place that has managed their game populations in a productive manner have done so by:
a) Managing their predators properly (mentioned above, and goes to this next point not discussed), and
b) Managing their game populations with a healthy bull;cow or buck;doe ratio - this means that older mature females should also be harvested on a regular basis to ensure that the male:female ratio remains balanced in healthy state.
It is easy enough to ensure that you are not harvesting a cow or doe that is still accompanied by a calf or fawn, it just takes more time to observe and ensure it is a lone, dry mature cow or doe - if a hunter does not take this care, nursing mothers will be taken, and if to early in the calf or fawns life cycle, they will be susceptible to easier predation when not in a herd environment. Later in the season (say November and December), the calves and fawns are starting to be weaned from their mothers milk and are better prepared to fend for themselves as they are older and stronger. When I have been in greater need of meat while hunting in the past (early 90's), I have opted for the second year calf moose, as the cow was most likely bred and would be producing another calf in the spring. Other than that, over the years, when harvesting a female moose, elk or deer, I have always taken the time to ensure I was harvesting the old, mature dry cow or doe before taking that shot.
For me, the main point here is maintaining a proper balance of predator and prey species, as well as a proper balance in the numbers of males and females in any given population, in order to realize healthy populations and good recruitment numbers.
Our moose populations here in northern BC have gone down by over 70% in the past 12 years, and the so called experts running our wildlife management have only exacerbated the problem with their changes in wildlife management, as have the politicians who make the orders, who know nothing about what they are doing and are incurring more wildlife conservation problems while trying to solve their political issues. There was a period of 5 years since 2010 that I hunted from August through to December in the South Peace region and did not even see a single bull moose; just cows and calves. I know they were there (found their tracks, droppings and rubs, and seen the calves), but they just weren't being seen. The hunting pressure here has been very high over the past 20 years and it shows, as many of the hunted species have gone nocturnal, and are not seen as often or in the numbers that they used to be seen.
New to hunting in Canada. Moved back to Canada after living in Sandpoint, Idaho for the last 10 years or so. Anyway, now living in the Edmonton, Alberta area. I haven't read up on regulations for hunting wolves in BC or other provinces other than Alberta, but I completely agree and it seems pretty obvious: decrease wolf populations! I've always been interested in hunting wolves, and coyotes for that matter. Wolves were open game in Idaho, and are open game in Alberta as well as far as I know. Bounty or no bounty, I plan on it!
