No it doesn’t work.
Neck turners/precision reloading
- Thread starter RunningRiver
- Start date
No it doesn’t work.
It has been proven that salt bath annealing does not properly anneal brass, like many other methods people do
The problem with weight sorting brass is that you don't know where the difference in weight is coming from between brass pieces, and usually it's not in a place that effects volume of the cartridge, such as the web.
Weight sorting has been proven by a few people to be a futile exercise. If you want to be that anal, you should be measuring case volume rather then weight.
What level of precision where you seeing before and after turning necks? What was your ES before and after?
I find I get more consistent ES/SD with Lapua brass over say Hornady and RUAG.
I don't turn necks, lube necks, uniform primer pockets, clean primer pockets, deburr flash holes, weight or volume sort brass, and my ES's are ~15 fps over long strings of fire.
Quality components do make a difference in the reloading room, and ultimately down range. I'd rather not waste my time doing a bunch of extra steps in the reloading room for minimal gain, and lapua brass and Berger bullets go a long way in helping me accomplish that.
Sorry but... That almost sounds like you are saying we should start mixing head stamps. Not for me thanks.
Weight of brass equals volume of brass. The chamber itself is the only volumetric constant.
Brass displaces a certain amount of that chamber volume (by weight). The more brass in the chamber the higher the pressure... Simple physics. Once ignition takes place, the brass expands to fit the chamber and at that point all brass is volumetrically identical on the outside.
The argument about brass distribution throughout the case may be valid at a theoretical level, but I doubt there is enough variation within a common headstamp between two cases of the same weight to result in a meaningful difference in ignition characteristics that it justifies not weighing brass.
If some guys somewhere determined that brass weight makes no difference, it's because there's something wrong with how they determined that. It's a bad idea to promote such a thing in the absence of adult intervention.
Case to case weight variation is a variable, however small. It can be easily controlled, so don't control it if you don't shoot far enough for it to become meaningful.
Brass weight is calculated by Length x Width X Height in inches x 0.308 x 7000 = brass weight in grains, so if it weighs more, its bigger. Heavier brass will produce statistically faster velocities than lighter brass.
Just a little fast math... A 0.001" wall stock difference on a case about the size of a 308 equals about 9.7 grains of weight. So that's about 6 percent of the case weight.... ball park.
Any policy is a success by sufficiently low standards and a failure by sufficiently high standards.
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I did not read most of the thread but am responding to the very first post...DO NOT NECK TURN in excess of 6 thou clearance total MAX.Personally I neck turn for 3.5 clearance on my two turn neck 7mm saum and 2.5-3 thou clearance on my turn neck 6x47 lapuas. If your loaded round has too much clearance the blow back will crush the shoulders ruining the cases. I guy I know just had to use my neck turner to neck turn brass for his factory 7mm RUM and ruined all 50 cases he did.If it is a standard chamber make sure you just skim the necks.....
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sharp shooter
CGN frequent flyer
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- Essex county (Ontario)
Enlighten me please. I have heard this before but my thick skull doesn't understand how it makes a difference how you get the brass to specified temps.
You can tell how much your brass is annealed by what sizing bushing it needs to hold a bullet.
Soft brass has less spring back than hard brass, so hard brass will require a smaller neck sizing bushing than soft brass.
If after annealing the brass has less spring back, then it is softer.
Just keep track of the bushing sizes needed to get acceptable neck tension through the life cycle of your brass.
If the brass has no spring back, then it has been over annealed and its junk. This is most likely to occur when using high heat like a flame, and less likely to occur using salt bath because it anneals at a much lower temperature which expands the time sensetivity tolerance.
Soft brass has less spring back than hard brass, so hard brass will require a smaller neck sizing bushing than soft brass.
If after annealing the brass has less spring back, then it is softer.
Just keep track of the bushing sizes needed to get acceptable neck tension through the life cycle of your brass.
If the brass has no spring back, then it has been over annealed and its junk. This is most likely to occur when using high heat like a flame, and less likely to occur using salt bath because it anneals at a much lower temperature which expands the time sensetivity tolerance.
The only real argument against salt bath annealing is from the company that sells a $2000 induction annealer. Not saying they're wrong but it is a highly biased source and not a single round was fired in their test. I do hear positive reviews from people who use salt bath annealing in their reloading process. Even if it doesn't soften brass to AMP's labratory target hardness, so long as it's having a positive improvement on your groups compared to not annealing then I'd say it has merit. Is it as good as the $2000 annealer? Probably not. Does it cost $2000? No.
Supposedly you can work harden your brass back if you over anneal it, by running it through your die multiple times (~5).
I've never had to do it myself, but I've read elsewhere of that trick. So perhaps try that before tossing your brass in the garbage.
I love my AMP, and how simple it makes the process while introducing some "science".
But I will agree that AMP has a fiscal incentive to downplay the performance of competition products and methods.
sharp shooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Essex county (Ontario)
I really do not buy into the "salt bath doesn't work" at all. When I started salt bath annealing I immediately noticed how consistent seating was.
It’s been tested in a lab and found to be ineffective.
sharp shooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Essex county (Ontario)
Who's lab?
Only AmP says it does not work...and they have a BIG $1800 bias...it does work..better than the torch method..better temperature control. The brass does not know how it get to the annealing temperature...
I use the salt bath and it does work very well. Used the torch method for years and the salt bath is way more convenient. I shoot with a guy who own an AMP and I can tell you I do win group and score at matches...and my brass last and last..I reload 6 BR, 30 BR, 6.5-284, .223, .308, 30-30, 45-70 and shoot a couple caliber every week end, 150-200 rounds.
My brass do get a work out, .223 and .308 where used in AR - small base die FL resized every time .006, and now in bolt guns.
Not one single piece of brass had to be tossed because of neck split or other work harden brass defect. Proof is in the pouding. Salt bath does work - very well.
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sharp shooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Essex county (Ontario)
Amen!
Annealing brass is such a subjective thing.
If we think about the process of annealing... the hardness drops at a certain rate at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time.
The higher the temperature, the faster the hardness will change. The lower the temperature the slower the hardness will change. (Assuming the minimum required temperature has been met)
So the point is that the hardness of the brass before annealing is relative to the hardness after annealing.
If the annealing process is set to drop the hardness by 10 hardness points (as an example) and you started with 3 cases of 3 different hardnesses, then each case will be lower by 10 points from wherever they were before being annealed. Not magically made to be more consistent.
So unless you are testing the hardness of each case before anneal and dialing the time at temperature in accordance with the hardness spread between what you have and what you want for that particular case, you will have variance in the post anneal hardness, regardless of what system is used.
How Amp Anneal or anyone else could possibly claim otherwise would defy my understanding of metallurgical science.
There could be a benefit to perfect annealing consistency if the original batch is of a consistent hardness and the annealing process is so precise that the post anneal hardness is still equally consistent, then that would repeat, over and over.
If the annealing process introduces hardness variability, then that variability will continue to expand over the lot and the hardness range will increase over the number of annealing events that occur over the life of the brass.
If we think about the process of annealing... the hardness drops at a certain rate at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time.
The higher the temperature, the faster the hardness will change. The lower the temperature the slower the hardness will change. (Assuming the minimum required temperature has been met)
So the point is that the hardness of the brass before annealing is relative to the hardness after annealing.
If the annealing process is set to drop the hardness by 10 hardness points (as an example) and you started with 3 cases of 3 different hardnesses, then each case will be lower by 10 points from wherever they were before being annealed. Not magically made to be more consistent.
So unless you are testing the hardness of each case before anneal and dialing the time at temperature in accordance with the hardness spread between what you have and what you want for that particular case, you will have variance in the post anneal hardness, regardless of what system is used.
How Amp Anneal or anyone else could possibly claim otherwise would defy my understanding of metallurgical science.
There could be a benefit to perfect annealing consistency if the original batch is of a consistent hardness and the annealing process is so precise that the post anneal hardness is still equally consistent, then that would repeat, over and over.
If the annealing process introduces hardness variability, then that variability will continue to expand over the lot and the hardness range will increase over the number of annealing events that occur over the life of the brass.
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