303 Brass Head separation question

[Potashminer]

If for some reason, you have troubles with running a 22-250 case into a 250 Savage die (and 90% sure that you will have no problems!!!), can also look up the COW method of blowing out the neck to 25 caliber. Essentially restoring the case design to what it started out as?? COW method has bit of advantage in that it will also blow out shoulders, body, etc. to match your chamber - sort of - not quite like full power loads, but close - using shotgun or pistol powder (I use 13 grains Unique to blow out 7mm Rem Mag into 458 Win Mag), some Cream of Wheat breakfast cereal, and dribble of melted wax on end to keep it from falling out - no bullet used in that process...

 

[Eagleye]

I acquired 60 S&B cases from an acquaintance that he had fired [as loaded ammo] in his LE.
Every one of them had a distinctive ring inside the case just above the solid head of the case.
They had only been fired once in his rifle, but showed signs of incipient separation.

I turfed them all.

My 1910 Ross does not cause the brass stretch that is often experienced in LE rifles, so, while
I do have a neck sizer die, I FL size all my brass in deference to the straight pull Ross action. Dave.

 

[Potashminer]

Lee Enfield designers 130 years ago did not have us 2020 re-loaders in mind, at all. Chamber, fire and eject - once. Those S&B did exactly that.

 

[bigedp51]

Both cases below were fired in my 1943 No.4 Enfield with the headspace a smidgen below .067.

The Prvi Partizan case has a thicker rim, has a larger base diameter and is .010 thicker in the base web area. Meaning the Prvi Partizan case is made heavy duty and FORD TRUCK TOUGH. The thinnest and in my opinion the worst brass to use is Winchester and if you can't get the Prvi Partizan brass Remington would be my second choice.

Below is a new unfired Remington case in a Wilson case gauge and it would drop further into the gauge but the rim is holding the case. Meaning the shoulder location is about a 1/4 inch short of the shoulder of the chamber.

Below is a fired case in the Wilson case gauge and the amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how far forward the military chamber shoulder is vs SAAMI standards. And if you full length resize your cases they will headspace on the rim and not the shoulder. This is why you should neck size and let the case headspace on its shoulder and let the rear of the case be close to the bolt face.

Below on the left a new unfired Remington .303 British case, and on the right a fired case showing how far forward the case shoulder has been fire formed to the chamber. And again why you want to neck size only or partially full length resize and only bump the shoulder back .001 or .002.

Below is from a 1947 Australian book on the Enfield rifle using Australian ammunition and headspace gauges.

Below my 1950 No.4 Mk.2 Enfield with two bolt heads fitted, the No.2 bolt head sets the headspace at .059 for thinner rims on American brass. You do not need to use the o-ring method of fire forming when the headspace is set with the rear of the case almost kissing the bolt face. And the No.1 bolt head can be used with Prvi Partizan brass with thicker rims.

 

[bigedp51]

Lee Enfield designers 130 years ago did not have us 2020 re-loaders in mind, at all. Chamber, fire and eject - once. Those S&B did exactly that.

In 1914 the Enfield chambers had to be reamed larger in diameter and longer in length to the shoulder of the chamber. This was due to an ammunition scandal and who was awarded contracts to make ammunition. Some of the ammunition was so poorly made it would not even chamber in a standard chamber.

Below surplus click.................................bang Pakistani .303 British ammo, and what happens if you open the bolt before the "BANG" during a mad minute shoot.

 

[RonR]

I've has particular issues with Winchester blue bag brass. It seems particularly brittle - neck splits on first firing in a tight chambered P-14. I've annealed the rest, but question its longevity at the web.

argh... I inherited a blue and white bag and loaded it up plus the o-ring method. We'll see how that lasts. So far 2x load and holding with no necks or case separations. I heard the Win black and red bag stuff isn't as good anymore so haven't considered purchasing that ever.

Bought some unloaded Winchester 20 round boxes from another CGN'r. For myself the boxes would be vintage in appearance and to be truthful didn't even know they sold virgin brass brass that way in the first place. Put PRVI stuff in my son's LE and it is strong. No o-ring needed there. Will try the boxed Winnie stuff in due time.

I can see two different re-loading process for 303 British being discussed? One guy buys factory ammo, shoots it at deer or moose, collects empty brass and eventually wants to reload it. Sometimes even collects empty fired brass from other rifles. Another guy buys bags of bulk brass - fire forms it to fit his chamber (often using o-ring trick or similar), then reloads it to go hunting with - may or may not collect the fired cases for reloading. First guy more likely to have the head separations within a couple re-loads - his first shot likely started the incipient head separation / case wall stretch - can not undo that, once it has occurred. Neck sizing only, might gain a couple more loads, but only if brass segregated for each rifle, and only so long as reloaded round can still be chambered - eventually shoulder will need to be "pushed back". No way that I can think of to transfer the "head spacing" from the rim to the case shoulder, without fire-forming that case at least once.

Well stated ^^^.

Regards
Ronr

 

[Rick]

argh... I inherited a blue and white bag and loaded it up plus the o-ring method.

You can skip the O-rings and use a Lyman .33 M Die to expand the case necks on that new brass you have. After doing that, resize the necks down with your sizing die until you get a firm crush fit when chambering the case.

The false shoulder you've created on the neck ensures the base of the case is against the bolt face, held there by the false shoulder you've created. I just did two hundred Privi empty cases I got a smoking deal on a few years ago when I contemplated my Greek HXP brass would eventually be worn out. One of this winter's projects will be loading those cases with the cast bullets and charges I will be using for initial firing, come spring and warmer weather.

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Initial firing with a false shoulder, along with proper resizing afterwards and regular annealing (I've settled on annealing 303 Brit case mouths every four firings until they're done for some reason or other that I can't remember any longer) will get you your best case life as well as best accuracy. At least, that's my belief and experience - your mileage (or that of others) may differ.

 

[Potashminer]

Using larger inside expander, (if you have it) and then creating false shoulder works - I have done a number of 8x57 into 9.3x57 using that exact method - still has to be fired though, to blow out that shoulder the full width, etc. Not going to have a "fully fire formed" case until that fire forming has occurred - but definitely will have no excess head "clearance" - until some doofus decides to follow instructions from RCBS to set up the sizing die to "full length size" - that undoes all the good previous work...

 

[Rick]

Using larger inside expander, (if you have it) and then creating false shoulder works - I have done a number of 8x57 into 9.3x57 using that exact method - still has to be fired though, to blow out that shoulder the full width, etc. Not going to have a "fully fire formed" case until that fire forming has occurred - but definitely will have no excess head "clearance"

That is true. It is also true that the O-ring method also doesn't do a single thing to the cases until they've also been fired for the first time.

Two different roads that both lead to Rome. Probably more of an academic question, but the false shoulder method is perhaps more likely to center the case in the chamber - particularly sloppy chambers- than the O-ring method.

But you could spend a lot of hours and money on firing new brass using the two different methods and then comparing the fired brass trying to figure out if either actually provided a real world advantage.

 

[burnt_servo]

this is what i do , i only neck size 3/4's of the neck and the issue with headspacing goes away

You can skip the O-rings and use a Lyman .33 M Die to expand the case necks on that new brass you have. After doing that, resize the necks down with your sizing die until you get a firm crush fit when chambering the case.

The false shoulder you've created on the neck ensures the base of the case is against the bolt face, held there by the false shoulder you've created. I just did two hundred Privi empty cases I got a smoking deal on a few years ago when I contemplated my Greek HXP brass would eventually be worn out. One of this winter's projects will be loading those cases with the cast bullets and charges I will be using for initial firing, come spring and warmer weather.



Initial firing with a false shoulder, along with proper resizing afterwards and regular annealing (I've settled on annealing 303 Brit case mouths every four firings until they're done for some reason or other that I can't remember any longer) will get you your best case life as well as best accuracy. At least, that's my belief and experience - your mileage (or that of others) may differ.

 

[bigedp51]

That is true. It is also true that the O-ring method also doesn't do a single thing to the cases until they've also been fired for the first time.

Two different roads that both lead to Rome. Probably more of an academic question, but the false shoulder method is perhaps more likely to center the case in the chamber - particularly sloppy chambers- than the O-ring method.

But you could spend a lot of hours and money on firing new brass using the two different methods and then comparing the fired brass trying to figure out if either actually provided a real world advantage.

The o-ring method centers the rear of the case in the chamber, as the o-ring is compressed and flows into the rear of the chamber it centers the case. You do not have a recessed bolt face to hold and center the rear of the case and the case can lay in the bottom of the chamber. I have seen fired cases that look like the Leaning Tower of Pisa that were fired in No.1 rifles.

I have also used the false shoulder method using a expander die, but thought I might be over working the case neck.

I also tried seating the bullets long and jamming them into the rifling. "BUT" cordite throat erosion can prevent this method on worn throats.

And a runout gauge will tell you which method works best for your chamber. And I'm not criticizing any method posted here so pick what works best for you.

Below on the left a Prvi case fire formed using the o-ring method and the base of the case looks symmetrical. The HXP case on the left is bulging on the left side and the right side was laying on the bottom of the chamber. And cases with a smaller base diameter are effected more and warp more and become banana shaped.

 

[tiriaq]

I suspect that sometimes cases may expand unevenly because the case walls are not of uniform thickness.

 

[bigedp51]

I suspect that sometimes cases may expand unevenly because the case walls are not of uniform thickness.

You are correct and it can happen with any rifle case, I had a 1943 Remington 03-A3 30-06 with a oversized chamber. I think a sanding stick had been used to remove rust in the chamber. And the majority of Remington cases fired in the chamber of this rifle would warp and become egg-shaped.

Below measuring case wall thickness, uniformity, and stretching and thinning in the base web area. This RCBS case mastering gauge is good to have especially if you have Enfield rifles.

 

[f55]

For the experts

from left to right, first 2 are Winchester 303 brass (first is separating) three times fired and third time neck sized, last is PPU brass also three times fired and neck sized.

The winchester brass show scratches or are they stress fractures inside?

I checked all 20 shot today and only these 2 winchester show these marks

last image is PPU and no scratches or fractures.

Winchester (brass ring visible)

Winchester (looks like second Win brass is starting to separate from the visible ring

PPU

 

[cosmic]

That is true. It is also true that the O-ring method also doesn't do a single thing to the cases until they've also been fired for the first time.

Two different roads that both lead to Rome. Probably more of an academic question, but the false shoulder method is perhaps more likely to center the case in the chamber - particularly sloppy chambers- than the O-ring method.

But you could spend a lot of hours and money on firing new brass using the two different methods and then comparing the fired brass trying to figure out if either actually provided a real world advantage.

My understanding is that the o-ring is beneficial on the first firing. It prevents the case from going forward upon being struck by the firing pin. This causes most of the axial case expansion to occur at the shoulder, and reducing axial expansion at the base of the case. In effect, it tightens up the rim headspace. Once the case has been sized to the chamber (eg neck sizing, partial resizing with FL die) the o-ring is not needed...

 

[Burton Urnie]

I've really enjoyed this post. Especially the o ring idea.
I have just under 2000 virgin imperial 303 brass I bought many years ago. I'm going to use that I ring method, it makes sense that it'll center the brass at the head in the chamber

 

[Rick]

My understanding is that the o-ring is beneficial on the first firing. It prevents the case from going forward upon being struck by the firing pin.

That is true. It is also true that forming a false shoulder in the neck so as to have a firm crush fit on closing the bolt will do exactly the same thing - as described in the original post that resulted in the o-ring method explanation being posted as an alternative in a response.

Both will prevent initial setback. A false shoulder may do a better job of centering the case in the chamber by way of the false shoulder centering the neck at the front in the neck portion of the chamber. Whether or not that would make any real world difference for subsequent reloads, I have no idea as I've never tested it. I prefer the false shoulder method; others may prefer o-rings. To each their own.

 

[Rick]

I've really enjoyed this post. Especially the o ring idea.
I have just under 2000 virgin imperial 303 brass I bought many years ago. I'm going to use that I ring method, it makes sense that it'll center the brass at the head in the chamber

For that many pieces of brass, you can also use the false shoulder method that both centers the brass and has the case firmly in contact at the front and at the back.

Brass does not age harden - if properly annealed from the factory and stored away from sources of fumes. The AMP annealer company did a bunch of tests on that and worked with Pederson Brass to do testing on that - although, they were using pricey Lapua brass. You should be able to find the .pdf of their testing if you go to the AMP website; I used to have the link. Here we go, for what it's worth:
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/60/age-hardening-of-brass/

I would be tempted to neck anneal that brass while doing the original case prep prior to first firing. Can't prove that it will help case life and accuracy; can't prove that it won't. The Imperial brass I had was good stuff that lasted a long time before eventually giving up the ghost. Would like to have 2000 cases of that stuff.

 

[Potashminer]

My understanding is that the o-ring is beneficial on the first firing. It prevents the case from going forward upon being struck by the firing pin. This causes most of the axial case expansion to occur at the shoulder, and reducing axial expansion at the base of the case. In effect, it tightens up the rim headspace. Once the case has been sized to the chamber (eg neck sizing, partial resizing with FL die) the o-ring is not needed...

A bit of error, possibly? The various methods described do not "tighten up the rim headspace". They hold the rear end of the case tight against the bolt face, even when struck by the firing pin - the case rim does NOT move forward to its seat - and therefore the firing blows out the front of the case, so that the case now headspaces on it's shoulder at the front, not on the leading edge of the rim. Done as described, it then gets treated as a rimless case - however, headspace gauges for rimmed cases are like headspace gauges for belted cases - only measure or gauge at the very rear end of the chamber - do not do anything about the body or shoulder length. So once properly "fire formed" to that chamber, there is no gauge to use - only the fit into that chamber from then on... The bolt face and chamber become the "gauge".

Re-reading - quite possible we are meaning to say the same thing, but using different words??

 

[Rick]

For the experts

from left to right, first 2 are Winchester 303 brass (first is separating) three times fired and third time neck sized, last is PPU brass also three times fired and neck sized.

More info/details would help. If somebody held a gun to my head and demanded I give my best guess based on what is provided, I would guess that the cases weren't initially prepped and then were oversized each time after that. But that would only be a guess.

I think most people doing a lot of reloading for .303 British, especially in Lee Enfields, would agree that PPU brass is far superior in quality to Winchester.

That said, what was the case preparation regime before the brass was loaded and fired the first time?

And after that, how was sizing done for the three successive firings prior to finally neck sizing?

What works for me (your mileage may vary), is a false shoulder to obtain a crush fit for the first loading/firing, sizing with a Lee Collet Die after that, and annealing every third firing. The top guys with expensive rifles competing in PRC and F Class apparently anneal their expensive Lapua cases after every single firing. Not in search of case longevity, but attempting to get the most consistent neck tension possible.

Neck annealing isn't going to help with case separation at the base of the case, however. Case prep prior to initial firing and how you size after that will have much more to do with the life of your cases, no matter which brand they are.