Short barrel deer rifle - .300 blackout?

This is probably what the OP is looking for...One in 7.62x39 would be good for deer out to a 100 yards or so...:)

https://blackcreeklabs.com/portfolio_page/bison/

I took a look at that. Sorta meh in my opinion. 7.2 lbs is pretty heavy for a short barreled rifle and I don't much like chassis for a hunting rifle, much prefer a traditional stock - even if it's a cheapo polymer one.

Also, it's nothing more than a 3d render at this point. I may change my dismissive reaction to this thing if it actually gets built and comes in around 5.5 pounds or so, and has an option for a traditional stock (i.e. it's got a standardized action body)
 
I hope that isn't a dressed up 700 action, ruger has a nicer action, but that isn't saying much

It's a 70 degree bolt so not a 700 action...I told myself I was not going to get any more new rifles this year but I might be interested in one of these just because. ��
 
I agree with Hoytcannon, I have alot of different calibers I can use for hunting but never reach for my 223 for big game hunting. I have to much respect for the animals. I still talk to people who say “ I took a shot but he ran off - must have missed him”. I ask if they went and looked for blood - “um no I missed” there are quite a few out there with that line of thought. If you cannot handle the recoil of at least a 6.5 CM maybe try knitting. JMHO.
 
I agree with Hoytcannon, I have alot of different calibers I can use for hunting but never reach for my 223 for big game hunting. I have to much respect for the animals. I still talk to people who say “ I took a shot but he ran off - must have missed him”. I ask if they went and looked for blood - “um no I missed” there are quite a few out there with that line of thought. If you cannot handle the recoil of at least a 6.5 CM maybe try knitting. JMHO.

I will still have to respectfully disagree with you. Every person I have ever talked to that bashes lighter cartridges for larger game has no experience or actual firsthand use. The argument that novices make bad shots with light calibers and then don’t look for the animal goes both ways. I know plenty of guys that call themselves hunters that take potshots at deer with massive calibers and never bother to even check for blood because the .300wsm should drop it where it stands according to them. I will argue with anyone, any day of the week, that a lighter cartridge, with appropriate bullet construction, and proper shot placement is far superior to choosing a bigger cartridge and figuring that’s enough.
 
The age old CGN argument... nobody's mind gets changed, but resistance is necessary for the undecided... go ahead and present your case and opinion. Mine is that if you can handle a .243 with 100 grain and have access to it, why choose the .223 with 55 grain? If you can handle a 6.5mm with 140 why choose the .243? Over time a little margin will pay dividends. Of course the "when is enough, enough" for medium game, argument will be made... for you, apparently that line is .223, for me it is the 6.5mm group... everyone has their cut-off point (or they should). My argument, and I will leave the conversation with this, put a little margin into your choice. Just as choosing the super magnum cartridge may say something about the user, so does choosing the overly light cartridge.


And yet, here you are still, adding nothing to the conversation of substance. Say your piece and let it go.

Everybody's grandfather said that... including mine... but my uncles tell stories that don't really support that story line... too bad not everyone has drunk uncles.

The drunk uncles weren't doing the shooting, they were doing the talking...

This myth that "grandfathers" were out there making one shot kills on deer with .22's is so much BS... whenever they saw a deer they pulled out a .22 from behind the tractor seat, or off the tool shed wall and cranked off a shot... the only story told after that was about the one that dropped dead in the cabbage patch, not the dozen that ran away with a .22 slug somewhere in their body.

Not sure how a rimfire .22 holds any validity in the conversation, but fill your boots if you figure that comparing it to a 22 CF carries weight.

No...




It is funny that you think that people are using "premium 69 grain bullets."

It is funny that you think everyone using a 22 CF is using a 36 gr Varmint Grenade or Vmax instead of a dedicated deer bullet, of which there are many. Anyone can walk into a Canadian Tire and look for the little deer symbol on the box of factory ammo and be perfectly suited to whitetails at common ranges.


What I find even more ironic though, is that ANY time there is a "22 CF for ###xx" hoytcannon will be along shortly to tell everyone how stupid the OP is for even asking the question about whether it will get the job done and to man up and use something bigger. And yet, when Angus was building his single shot 5.6x50 for mountain goats - arguably one of the toughest critters to anchor reliably - you couldn't fluff his nuts any harder.... Even after he stated that he was mostly building it for his boy to use to get started on critters with. Not one negative comment when Angus posted a pic of that rifle with a very respectable bear either...... hmmmm.... Hypocrite much? Why no admonition to Angus that he should have used one of his 375's, as obviously he shoots those well enough to hit a bear?




To the OP, while I am the last person that will tell you to not buy another rifle or turn the one you have into what you want, the rifle you have will kill whitetails all day long at the ranges you state. You can buy Barnes or Hornady monometals in factory rounds in 50/55/62 etc that will punch shoulders on deer every time. If you are concerned about meeting the velocity thresh hold for expansion with the short tube then you can likely find the 75 Amax/HPBT or 77 TMK in a factory round. All three of those options will dig deep and expand well. The TMK is getting pretty effective reviews from some serious killers down across the border who are pushing that one out to triple your stated shot distance. Search Rokslide or 24hourcampfire to see what some guys are using regularly for bullets in 22CF's on big game.
 
And yet, here you are still, adding nothing to the conversation of substance. Say your piece and let it go.





Not sure how a rimfire .22 holds any validity in the conversation, but fill your boots if you figure that comparing it to a 22 CF carries weight.



It is funny that you think everyone using a 22 CF is using a 36 gr Varmint Grenade or Vmax instead of a dedicated deer bullet, of which there are many. Anyone can walk into a Canadian Tire and look for the little deer symbol on the box of factory ammo and be perfectly suited to whitetails at common ranges.



What I find even more ironic though, is that ANY time there is a "22 CF for ###xx" hoytcannon will be along shortly to tell everyone how stupid the OP is for even asking the question about whether it will get the job done and to man up and use something bigger. And yet, when Angus was building his single shot 5.6x50 for mountain goats - arguably one of the toughest critters to anchor reliably - you couldn't fluff his nuts any harder.... Even after he stated that he was mostly building it for his boy to use to get started on critters with. Not one negative comment when Angus posted a pic of that rifle with a very respectable bear either...... hmmmm.... Hypocrite much? Why no admonition to Angus that he should have used one of his 375's, as obviously he shoots those well enough to hit a bear?




To the OP, while I am the last person that will tell you to not buy another rifle or turn the one you have into what you want, the rifle you have will kill whitetails all day long at the ranges you state. You can buy Barnes or Hornady monometals in factory rounds in 50/55/62 etc that will punch shoulders on deer every time. If you are concerned about meeting the velocity thresh hold for expansion with the short tube then you can likely find the 75 Amax/HPBT or 77 TMK in a factory round. All three of those options will dig deep and expand well. The TMK is getting pretty effective reviews from some serious killers down across the border who are pushing that one out to triple your stated shot distance. Search Rokslide or 24hourcampfire to see what some guys are using regularly for bullets in 22CF's on big game.

Oh, the irony...

Anytime someone talks about using .22 CF on deer, the guy that shoots deer the size of cocker spaniels chimes in...

Forgive me for not reading the entirety of your clearly passionate and highly focused post.
 
Oh, the irony...

Anytime someone talks about using .22 CF on deer, the guy that shoots deer the size of cocker spaniels chimes in...

Forgive me for not reading the entirety of your clearly passionate and highly focused post.

I would guess that you have read the entire post and noted that you couldn't rebut the assessment so opted for insults, the mainstay of internet bullies everywhere.

I'm in North East BC Hoyt, we grow them big here. I've never hunted coastal deer.
The vast majority of deer I have killed in the last 10 years (and there have been quite a few) have all been shading 240+lbs on the hoof, with some of those well over that. And I'm not guessing on the weights, I weigh everything. That said, the last whitetail I killed was in the last minutes of daylight, on the last day of the season as he was chasing a doe and that one only weighed 140 lbs gutted. But the one before that was 240lbs gutted. Admittedly, not prairie deer.... Oh wait, the Peace is pretty much prairie country.
Be careful guessing there Hoyt, because some of us aren't.
 
Small deer already have such a limited amount of meat on them, the idea is not to "punch" any shoulder if you want to eat it.
Your opinion, nothing more. Not everyone shares your shot placement opinions.
My opinion is that I would much rather punch at least one shoulder and recover every single animal every single time. Moose, elk, bears, deer, everything gets a shoulder smashed. I'm not so dependent on deer meat that I fret the loss of a few pounds of burger lost to bullet placement.
 
I would guess that you have read the entire post and noted that you couldn't rebut the assessment so opted for insults, the mainstay of internet bullies everywhere.

I'm in North East BC Hoyt, we grow them big here. I've never hunted coastal deer.
The vast majority of deer I have killed in the last 10 years (and there have been quite a few) have all been shading 240+lbs on the hoof, with some of those well over that. And I'm not guessing on the weights, I weigh everything. That said, the last whitetail I killed was in the last minutes of daylight, on the last day of the season as he was chasing a doe and that one only weighed 140 lbs gutted. But the one before that was 240lbs gutted. Admittedly, not prairie deer.... Oh wait, the Peace is pretty much prairie country.
Be careful guessing there Hoyt, because some of us aren't.

Somebody should tell all the deer I've ever killed with .223 that it's not suitable to kill them..

It is interesting to me that the two primary proponents of the .223 on deer in this thread, both of whom talk about "proper" shot placement are also talking about "breaking shoulders" with those .223's... hmmm...

TK, You question my experience... four decades of hunting extensively, two decades of outfitting and guiding, I have seen hundreds of big game animals taken, I tracked and dressed most of those... and have seen them taken with every conceivable cartridge from .223's to .470 Nitro... I have personally examined the damage to the carcasses, and I have taken mental note of the many dozens of stories that did not end well. The number one cause of bad endings has been poor judgment and decision making at the time of the shot by the hunter/sport, followed by poor shot placement due to a myriad of reasons... those things happen... which is why I advocate more margin in your choice of cartridge. There are many experience shooters/hunters right here on CGN who I would have complete confidence in making clean and successful harvests on deer with .223 rifles, Ardent, Gatehouse, Buckmaster, Bear Hunter, Todd Bartell, Why Not, Super Cub, Big Ugly Man, Boomer, Chuck Nelson, Track to name a few... these guys are shooter's and hunters, I would have complete confidence in any of them choosing an appropriate platform, bullet, load and then tuning it at the range and having the maturity and restraint in the field to choose the right shot and make it count.

The problem with using a blanket statement of lethality when making and/or suggesting a cartridge selection from the extreme light end of the sliding scale is that this information is noted and stored by many people who do not have this experience, maturity and hunting ability... this is likely to sway their decision making and potentially over time cause the wounding of many more game animals than is necessary.

As for experience with .22 centerfires, I shoot thousands of rounds annually with .22 CF and have for decades, not just .223's but also, .221 FB, .22 Hornet, .222 Rem, .22 PPC, .22 BR, .22/250, .22 TTH, .220 Swift and more... I shoot them at the range and I shoot them on coyotes and wolves, I am well aware of their potential... I have also had quite a few ladies and kids show up with .223's... fortunately women and kids tend to be very coachable.

Back to breaking shoulders with .223's, I do not regard this "intentional" practice as reasonable shot placement. There is just too much that can go wrong with attempting to penetrate heavy bone with small caliber, light and fast bullets. If breaking shoulders is your thing, even more margin should be considered... again, not that it can't be done, but it is not a good practice in general and will sooner or later end with a bad result(s).

I would equate this and draw a "judgement" parallel to the many, many sports over the years who disregarded our tutelage about shot placement and attempted head shots... their thought process invariably went something like this; "I can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards all day long, I should be able to make this head shot and drop it right in it's tracks." I can't tell you how many of these stories ended badly, there is just so much that can go wrong... of course this is an apples to oranges parallel, but the thinking is similar... if you are going to choose a cartridge from the extreme light end of the spectrum, then choose a point of impact that gives you the margin that is not built into the cartridge itself... namely a broadside double lung shot, and then make it happen.

I can tell you from working with experienced quides and outfitters for most of my life, they all breath a sigh of relief when they see a sport pull out a rifle platform properly rigged and chambered for a cartridge with the built in margin that we are discussing... that comes from their experiences with hundreds of clients and harvest scenarios.

Margin is a good thing in most areas of life.

So, go ahead and use whatever you want for your hunting, but for other readers, consider a cartridge choice that offers more margin for those times when things don't go perfectly, or for when you make a poor decision on shot placement or body posture.
 
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:)Great points Hoyt and well explained. And myself ;) , being from the pre metric era, I'm very much a follower of a well known pre metric era individual. He became a shooting and hunting focal point for me when I first got into handgun shooting. So much so, being a follower of his, in the early 70's, I contacted him and made arrangements to pay him a visit, ;) the first of two. Elmer Keith. The day I spent with him at his home in Salmon Idaho is the most memorable of my days of shooting and hunting. Oh, my avatar photo is one I took of him standing by my truck as I was preparing to head for home. His take on a rifle calibre choice, and keeping it brief, for big game is one that can for example penetrate say right front quarter to left rear quarter. He was known as being in favour of those calibres on the + side and it's hard to argue with his level of success. Granted, bullet technology has change considerably in recent years, but if I'm going to error, I'd rather it be for a choice on the + side.
 
Poor shot placement and poor judgement on part of the hunter is not the fault of the cartridge. Many people in my area lose all kinds of deer with large calibers because they lack the judgment to wait for proper shots. I would agree that potshotting at a deer 500 yards away with a .223 is not appropriate by any means. But a 100-200m shot on a deer presenting vitals will always produce dead deer if you place your shot where it needs to be. Yes bad #### happens in the field, being an artillery gunner I get that things don’t always go well, but hunters are usually afforded the luxury to not take bad shots when they know they won’t make an ethical shot. A bad shot with a .223 or a .300winmag is still a bad shot. Will a .300 have more potential to drop the animal? Maybe, but I think most people that are hunting with .22 CF understand that no shot is better then a bad shot.
 
TK-Hryciuk, in my post #95, the ethics of the shot were a basic that were 'assumed' or something I 'assumed' as a given. :) You are correct though and I was in error for not making mention of it. That being said, I'd still rather error on the + side calibre wise to ensure tissue disruption, bone breakage and to maximise blood flow.
 
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TK-Hryciuk, in my post #95, the ethics of the shot were a basic that were 'assumed' or something I 'assumed' as a given. :) You are correct though and I was in error for not making mention of it. That being said, I'd still rather error on the + side calibre wise to ensure tissue disruption, bone breakage and to maximise blood flow.

I understand the concern. But I shot a doe one year at around 150 yards and the 62gr bonded bullet impacted the front shoulder and still penetrated completely through the deer while destroying the heart. The front shoulder was completely shattered and the round still made it where it needed to go. I think the issue is more people using the wrong ammunition types for whitetail. I’ve seen YouTube videos of guys hunting with ar15s in the states while using 40gr varmint rounds and then complain that they had to shoot the animal 3 times.
 
I prefer to discuss facts- or as close as we can get to facts- rather than speculate on who might do what with what. Give people proper information and let them make their own choices. Some people are going to f@ck things up no matter what cartridge they choose. I don't hunt deer exclusively with a .223 or any other cartridge, I have lots of guns to choose from. But if I am feeling .223 that day, I know it will get the job done, this was the last deer I killed with a .223 a couple of years ago.

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