CCI Stnd Vel - Cheap and Accurate
- Thread starter Ganderite
- Start date
This is astounding. Consistent sub-MOA at 100 yards with CCI SV is beyond expectations. It is all the more unexpected with Savage A22 rifles. These semi-autos must be the best deal in .22LR sub-MOA accuracy for under $400 for the standard model with synthetic stock and just over $700 for the Precision model with the chassis. Impressively, they don't require match ammo to meet the sub-MOA at 100 yards benchmark.
Is it the ammo? The rifle? The shooter? What is the secret?
I’m with you on this one. That is an incredible result. I feel cheated with my single 1.19” 10 round group at 100yds with my Savage MK2 and CCISV.
"CCI standard Velocity will consistently shoots under an inch at 100 yards."
Or perhaps not. Just back from the range, shooting ten different types of .22 at 50 meters using a CZ453 and a 16 power Vortex scope. What was labelled as CCI standard velocity dropped almost exactly 6 inches and was quite "quiet". So much so that I pulled out the bolt to be sure that the bullet had actually left the barrel. As far as I can determine, the ammunition is actually CCI Quiet rather than SV. Purchased from Canadian Tire in NE Calgary near Cabela's. Every other box of SV has been excellent.
Or perhaps not. Just back from the range, shooting ten different types of .22 at 50 meters using a CZ453 and a 16 power Vortex scope. What was labelled as CCI standard velocity dropped almost exactly 6 inches and was quite "quiet". So much so that I pulled out the bolt to be sure that the bullet had actually left the barrel. As far as I can determine, the ammunition is actually CCI Quiet rather than SV. Purchased from Canadian Tire in NE Calgary near Cabela's. Every other box of SV has been excellent.
My Brno No2 and Tikka T1 will shoot waxed lead bullets much better than copper plated bullets.
Maybe it's just my rifles? The Husqvarna will shoot both OK but it isn't nearly as accurate as the other two.
Maybe it's just my rifles? The Husqvarna will shoot both OK but it isn't nearly as accurate as the other two.
Your rifles are not unique. Most standard velocity .22LR ammos shoot better than high velocity ammo, even in the wind and at longer distances.
Standard velocity ammo have lead bullets that will have a wax-like or grease-like lubricant. Copper washed bullets are invariably high velocity ammo. All .22LR match ammo is standard velocity with lead bullets, no copper. Of course there are SV ammos that are not especially accurate and there are HV ammos are more accurate than others.
As a CCI SV (and Quiet - old and new versions) fan, I'd like to believe... but considering that I've metered a bunch of different boxes of CCI SV and found variation within 1 50-round box to average about 30fps, this seems a stretch. Horizontal spread maybe? Chairgun is telling me a 30fps spread translates to just over 0.75" difference in vertical drop at 100 yards. Unless your gun is technically capable of 1/4" groups with the absolute best match ammo at 100, this does not seem possible. But hey, I'm not calling you out... just wondering how it could be possible given this velocity variation.
Hardhammer
CGN Regular
One Savage A22 shooting under an inch at 100 yards regularly with cci std is quite impressive, but two of them doing it is very hard to believe.
A 30 fps extreme spread for CCI SV would be extraordinary. The ES of a box of CCI SV is typically over 60 fps. If a match ammo has an ES of 30 fps or less, that's pretty good. If it's under 20 fps, it's gold.
Rod B
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Absolutely amazing; please post pics of claimed under 1" groups at 100 yds.
Okay, well coming from the airgunning world I didn't know this interesting fact. Here's silly me thinking wow, CCI SV is pretty darn inconsistent! A 30fps ES was actually bothering me quite a bit, making me think there's not a lot of point taking shots beyond 50 yards. My Pardini K12 has an ES of about 4fps with a halfway decent pellet. When competitions are won or lost by a couple of millimetres that sort of regulated consistency is rather important, though of course no human can hold a pistol steady enough in one hand to come close to the accuracy of a match barrel on a regulated PCP. Still, every bit counts.
Guess I'll just have to live with the 30fps ES I've been measuring (truly, haven't measured a box yet with a wider spread, guess I've been lucky!) and just try not to think about it. It's not like I'm bench rest shooting. If I were, no doubt I'd go for some Eley Match or whatever. But the pricing of CCI SV and the casual nature of my plinking are a good fit. My best group so far was 3.6" for 22 shots at 100 yards, standing, resting on a tilted fallen sapling with a bit of bounce to it. Best rest I could find in those woods for the old bolt action .22lr. Pretty evenly spread out over that 3.6" with no fliers. I felt okay about it. Next time I find a day to go out I'll see if that can shrink to under 3". If I ever manage 2" I'll consider it a minor miracle.
Just checked with Chairgun Pro - seems a 60fps ES makes for about a 1.1" drop difference at 100 yards. Nope, doesn't look like a 1" group is even possible with this cartridge, never mind what sort of rifle is shooting it. Unless one got incredibly lucky and stumbled upon a box with an ES of maybe 15fps or less.
Gerard, I recall you from CAF when I was shooting airguns. As you note, good airguns coupled with good pellets are indeed capable of low extreme spreads -- really low when compared to even the best .22LR match ammos. While an ES under in the single digits is not unusual in a good airgun, an ES of under 10 fps with .22LR is extraordinary.
As observed above, the trajectories produced by ammo with an ES of 30 fps reduce the chances that sub-one inch groups at 100 can be produced. If a five shot group was produced with 30 fps between the fastest and slowest rounds, such a group would measure at least .76" in vertical based on vertical drop due to MV differences alone. And that would require perfect shot execution every time.
Of course CCI SV typically has an ES considerably higher than 30 fps. It's an inexpensive ammo that can easily have an ES that's twice as much. An ES of 60 fps would produce a group with as much as 1.5" vertical spread at 100 yards.
To illustrate the ballistics, below are charts comparing CCI SV rounds at different muzzle velocities. The first shows a 30 fps difference between rounds, the second a 60 fps difference. It should be noted, however, that even with a certain ES in a box of ammo, that doesn't mean that every random set of five rounds selected will have that same ES. Most times it will be somewhat less -- how much less is dependent on the SD of the ammo. While vertical dispersion can have causes other than velocity differences between rounds, velocity differences are most often the main reason for it.
Consistent sub-MOA groups at 100 yards can't be expected with this ammo, no matter what rifle is used. Under-one-inch groups may be produced very occasionally with a very good rifle.
As observed above, the trajectories produced by ammo with an ES of 30 fps reduce the chances that sub-one inch groups at 100 can be produced. If a five shot group was produced with 30 fps between the fastest and slowest rounds, such a group would measure at least .76" in vertical based on vertical drop due to MV differences alone. And that would require perfect shot execution every time.
Of course CCI SV typically has an ES considerably higher than 30 fps. It's an inexpensive ammo that can easily have an ES that's twice as much. An ES of 60 fps would produce a group with as much as 1.5" vertical spread at 100 yards.
To illustrate the ballistics, below are charts comparing CCI SV rounds at different muzzle velocities. The first shows a 30 fps difference between rounds, the second a 60 fps difference. It should be noted, however, that even with a certain ES in a box of ammo, that doesn't mean that every random set of five rounds selected will have that same ES. Most times it will be somewhat less -- how much less is dependent on the SD of the ammo. While vertical dispersion can have causes other than velocity differences between rounds, velocity differences are most often the main reason for it.
Consistent sub-MOA groups at 100 yards can't be expected with this ammo, no matter what rifle is used. Under-one-inch groups may be produced very occasionally with a very good rifle.
Yeah, well, I had to walk away from that forum. Too much abusive nonsense was being directed at a good friend for no legitimate reason and the moderators were at the core of such bad behaviours. Not a healthy forum, but I did enjoy participating for some years, as many members were very decent people.
Thanks for posting specific related data. I can see how 5 shots might sometimes yield a sub-MOA group as a sort of 'lottery' but that's hardly something which can support suggestions that any given rifle can consistently perform in such a manner with CCI SV. It's a neat cartridge. Decent pricing, reasonable accuracy. But even with the low extreme spreads of a well-regulated PCP I don't trust accuracy testing with groups of fewer than 10 shots. That's something Ted talked about a few years back. With several top level awards for long range bench rest and other long range airgun shooting, he's a top authority on accuracy in airguns, and he made clear that 3 shot groups are meaningless, 5 shot groups marginally less so.
I mean hey, it's neat to see a tight cloverleaf group with a few shots... but there's usually that one flier ruining it, right? Getting a one-hole group in 10 shots or more starts to say something meaningful about a gun and the ammunition in use. I certainly wouldn't consider using my rifle for a 100 yard squirrel shot, for example, considering my best group so far at that range is 3.6" over 22 shots. Grey squirrel head shots should be within a 1/2" area, so that rifle would have to be almost 8 times as accurate in my hands to take such a shot, or failing that, I'd have to be almost 8 times closer to the squirrel. I'll take the latter, which is to say, it ain't no squirrel rifle.
So far my Ruger shoots better than my Savage. But I have only shot the Savage 3 times.
How big is your inch?
- Location
- Vancouver Island, BC
thanks for the info. I bought a "few" boxes of Aguila back when Rampart was clearing out their Aguila stock and the 22LR was 105$ for 5000 rds, maybe 2 years ago. It's always performed as well as the CCI SV in my Supermatic. After reading this thread I'm going try it in a rifle next time I go to the range.
shoot_to_kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Luskville quebec
Sk and cci std are my go to ammo. I have shot many consistent 0.5” groups with savage mark 2 and Ruger Precision.
They seem to be very consistent with not many flyers. Sk being the best.
They seem to be very consistent with not many flyers. Sk being the best.
My Mk2 averages 10 rnds in 2 1/4”@100yds with CCI SV. I record all groups I’ve shot. Recently trending under 2” for 10rounds. I’ll try the same ammo with a Tikka 1x in an ACC chassis in a few weeks and see if it’s better.
Hey ccm !! Still no pics of those sub-moa A-22s. 2-1/2 months later . . . guess G had it right - 'how big is your inch?" Here's the only 100 I have - I had zeroed at 50 w/Fed Auto-Match, then changed targets but aimed at the 100 instead of the 50. 
I had to estimate the MOA hold 'down' to get the final 2-hits within 1", numbers indicate sequence of the shots. My scope (at the time) has MOA-tree w/o numerical 'tags' so I was 'guessing' the hold. Second pic is same day - CCI-SV at 50. A flier in each group - 'cold shots' ?
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I had to estimate the MOA hold 'down' to get the final 2-hits within 1", numbers indicate sequence of the shots. My scope (at the time) has MOA-tree w/o numerical 'tags' so I was 'guessing' the hold. Second pic is same day - CCI-SV at 50. A flier in each group - 'cold shots' ?
