Bullet failures - What your experience has been.

What bullet construction has failed you the most, on big game.

  • Mono Metal

    Votes: 25 20.3%

  • Partition or A Frame Style

    Votes: 2 1.6%

  • Bonded

    Votes: 6 4.9%

  • Cup and core

    Votes: 42 34.1%

  • Ballistic tip style

    Votes: 39 31.7%

  • Other

    Votes: 9 7.3%
  • Total voters
    123
Boomer said:
Due to small bag limits and short hunting seasons, very few hunters in North America have shot sufficient game with any one bullet to enable them to develop an informed opinion as to the suitability for its use on a particular game animal. Thus hunters base their bullet choices upon what is allowable under law, and by what has been expressed to them in media, on the internet, and by other individuals. While we might make the best decisions we can, few of us can draw conclusions on bullet performance on game based upon our own observations and experience. Does this mean that we cannot make an ethical choice of which bullet to use? Ethics are a personal matter, keep in mind that a significant portion of the population doesn't think we should be shooting any animals at all, and that doing so is cruel and unethical. Perhaps ethics is the wrong measure, but we should be choosing bullets that have an expectation of killing game without causing unnecessary suffering.

We can make reasonable choices and still be wrong. There are circumstances where solids are the only reasonable choice, circumstances where they are one among other reasonable choices, and circumstances, such as when hunting in North America, where solids are for the most part illegal, and therefore unreasonable, for use on big game. The same can be said of the design suitability of monos, bonded, and cup and core game bullets, with respect to when their choice is reasonable one. Each bullet style has a design parameter that is optimized for muzzle velocity, impact velocity, and target density. There is no "one size fits all" game bullet that will perform optimally at all velocities on all sizes of game, in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise might be unethical.
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So, we should listen to those who have had had the opportunity to make multiple kills/hunts. ;)
 
Getting things back on track, I’ll share some of the bullets that have failed to perform optimally I my opinion.
130grain Power point ( cup and core) from a 270 win, shot a doe at 80 yards, broad side, bullet only penetrated maybe half of the chest and completely fell apart. The deer dropped but the deer lived for a while and required a 2nd shot when found.

130 Silver tip had similar performance of the power point, also cup and core.
130 TSX also from the 270 Win, shot a deer at about 30 yards and thought I missed, shocked that I missed that close shot of a shot I shot again still no reaction, I was about to shoot a 3rd time but I was but saw some blood pumping out of both his sides, I decided to stop shooting, he ran 50 yards and was shot by another guy in our hunting party lol, upon inspection the wound channel was very narrow maybe the size of a dime, so I changed bullets again.

After that I started using Swift Scirocco and have used them in 130grain 270win and 180grain in 300RUM and love there performance, this bonded bullet has expanded fairly quickly and penetrated deeply, I have recovered 2, one from shooting a bear head on at maybe 7 yards and penetrated to the hind quarter and the other from a deer at 350yards both held together well and penetrated well.
In all I have shot 1 bear and 4 deer with the 180 Swift in the 300RUM and 3 deer with the 130grain in 270Win.
I have also played with the 210VLD but didn’t like the shallow penetration, I had a few deer run 40 yards or so after being double lunged and because there was no pass through there was zero blood trail to follow, I then stopped using the Berger bullets for hunting.
 
Not a fan of the SST's. EE used the term "bloom" type of wound on the exterior of deer and I couldn't agree more. Had this happen 3x at moderate velocities and didn't need more results to make a change. As another has indicated, they ... work... just not well liked by me and my butcher table.

Went to bonded after that. When I have done my part or needed something to ensure penetration on a tough angle shot, the results have been as desired - or preferred - in my eyes. Quick end for the game, more deaths where standing or with in 10's of feet after and less tissue trauma with bonded offerings in my experiences.

Never a failure of any bullet when I have failed. Poor shot placement on my part makes for poor results and is avoidable suffering on the game is how I think of it.

Cheers all,
Ronr

P.S. My son uses Nosler Ballistic Silver tips, and I have been taking note of how effective those are. Tougher than anticipated.
 
What caliber and bullet weight is your son shooting? What game has he shot with it?
Thanks Zaz

P.S. My son uses Nosler Ballistic Silver tips, and I have been taking note of how effective those are. Tougher than anticipated.[/QUOTE]
 
It has been a few years since I replied to any of this sort of talk but here goes:

I've been using a 22-250 for many deer and have no reason to change in my last few years. I have used every option of bullet size - from 35 grain up - soft points and hollow points and plastic pointed v-max. I always load for high velocity - so that all energy is expended as soon as possible. I want little penetration and I have taken pictures of three ribs of a deer broken on the way in. I realize that this goes crosswise of anyone elses thinking and that's fine, but I can only suggest reasons why these have worked. We are careful of our shots - broadside as a rule and almost all outside of 100 yards and as far as 300 so the deer are never spooked and running. When the bullet hits, it is going very fast so busts ribs which go through the lungs like hand grenade, turning them to mush. The bullet turns to dust and never does damage to the far shoulder meat ( we are meat hunters, so this is very important.)

With the high speed of the 22-250, it can go a long ways, and still be going fast enough to open up and dump energy and I suspect that the new stiff premium bullets likely don't open well when the velocity is low - at long range. I have had only one time that the bullet behaved strange and that was a bear at just less than 100 yards - it was a 52 or 55 grain soft point that I'd clocked at 4200 fps average yet went out the other side of the ribcage leaving a loonie sized hole. The bear went no where, but I don't know why so much penetration.

When guys start chosing heavier bullets like a 220 in a 30 06, I ask if they want a slower bullet - because heavy always slows things down. If anything, I go light to get the speed up - the shock wave is a killer for deer.

I'm not looking for argument, but I have found that not everything is as we would expect.
 
I had a coyote slip away after I ran 70 gr Berger Target VLD through him at 100 yards. He ended up in the snow covered buck brush at the bottom of a coulee. Growling at me!

A couple more VLDs through the obstructed brush and he was mine.

I had a bullet failure story!

Or I could have done a better job killing him. Tough bugger.
 
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anchor3593 said:
It has been a few years since I replied to any of this sort of talk but here goes:

I've been using a 22-250 for many deer and have no reason to change in my last few years. I have used every option of bullet size - from 35 grain up - soft points and hollow points and plastic pointed v-max. I always load for high velocity - so that all energy is expended as soon as possible. I want little penetration and I have taken pictures of three ribs of a deer broken on the way in. I realize that this goes crosswise of anyone elses thinking and that's fine, but I can only suggest reasons why these have worked. We are careful of our shots - broadside as a rule and almost all outside of 100 yards and as far as 300 so the deer are never spooked and running. When the bullet hits, it is going very fast so busts ribs which go through the lungs like hand grenade, turning them to mush. The bullet turns to dust and never does damage to the far shoulder meat ( we are meat hunters, so this is very important.)

With the high speed of the 22-250, it can go a long ways, and still be going fast enough to open up and dump energy and I suspect that the new stiff premium bullets likely don't open well when the velocity is low - at long range. I have had only one time that the bullet behaved strange and that was a bear at just less than 100 yards - it was a 52 or 55 grain soft point that I'd clocked at 4200 fps average yet went out the other side of the ribcage leaving a loonie sized hole. The bear went no where, but I don't know why so much penetration.

When guys start chosing heavier bullets like a 220 in a 30 06, I ask if they want a slower bullet - because heavy always slows things down. If anything, I go light to get the speed up - the shock wave is a killer for deer.

I'm not looking for argument, but I have found that not everything is as we would expect.
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The above spells out precisely why I consider .223s and .22-250s experts' guns for big game rather than novices'. Clearly Anchor3593 is an expert. This sort of thing isn't for everyone, nor can it work in every circumstance. Not only does it require an intimate knowledge of the terminal performance that can be expected from those bullets, it also requires the patience necessary to wait until the game is in the perfect presentation, and in a relaxed state, preferably with it's head down and feeding. Range is your alley, in that the bullet has struck the deer before it hears the sound of the shot, and it has not moved during the bullet's time of flight, thus bullet placement is made in a cool, precise manner, with surgical precision.

Throughout his life, Roy Weatherby often opined a similar sentiment towards the terminal performance of game bullets; if the bullet disintegrates once inside the game, nothing can survive. For that reason he was indifferent to bullet construction. He urged his clients to stalk close so the bullet struck with as much velocity as possible, and he disparaged the idea of surface wounds being caused by bullets that could penetrate quarter inch steel plates. Penetrating steel is a function of velocity, and is not analogous to killing game, but that's another discussion. One might see the problem with the vaporizing bullet concept if a frontal, quartering, or a dead astern shot was attempted.

The .22 centerfire loaded with light bullets is unlikely to work where a group of hunters drive the deer towards the hunter sitting on post. Its not impossible for a still hunter, moving cautiously through the bush to get a broadside shot, but a rear raking shot is more likely. It can work for the hunter in a blind watching the tree line along the edge of a field or in some similar situation. Clearly though, the hunter armed with a .22 centerfire would have to pass up many opportunities that would be available to someone using a larger cartridge with a heavier bullet. The bullet that has sufficient weight, construction, and velocity to kill a deer with a quartering shot, has no disadvantage if the shot is broadside, where the opposite is not necessarily true.

As to bullet performance, a Partition can provide the best of both worlds. The front core provides that devastating explosive performance that that appeals to the vaporizing bullet enthusiasts, and will shred heart, lungs, and arteries, while the unexpanded rear core continues along its path to satisfy those of us who believe that the bullet doesn't break what it doesn't reach.
 
I wouldn’t think so, partitions and not bonded, depending on the velocity that they impact they typically mushroom down to the A frame partition, (the material ahead of the A frame is lost) and then stop mushrooming, weight retention can be as low as 60% but generally higher 75-85% range.
TSX are solid copper hollow points and vary rarely lose mush weight, they usually retain
+95% weight. However I did have a 180tsx that lost 3 out of the 4 petals but that’s pretty rare, I shot a moose at about 20 yards Through the front shoulder quartering towards me.
 
I have had 2 failures. A 180 gr Norma SP in a 308 in a moose at 424 yrds. Bullet was pristine. Could have been re-loaded and shot again.

A 150 gr Hornady SP at 125 yards. It hit a twig and blew up.

When I was in the ballistics business, my boss kept harping about results being "statistically valid". A result had to have been repeated a number of times, in a number of ways before we thought we knew something. A single incident meant almost nothing. When I tested ammo, I had velocity, pressure readings and even a picture of the bullet exiting the muzzle. Lots of data.

To a hunter, a deer with a clear pencil hole in and out means something. He can't know it was a 1 in 1000 fluke.

The nice thing about CGN is that there are guys here with a lot of experience and they share it.

At CIL we use beeswax to coat some 22 ammo. The wax came in blocks the size of milk crates. When I tested hunting bullets I shot into a block of wax at various velocities.

Testing was done at 100 yards because a bullet has yaw out of the muzzle and wig-wags a bit for the first 100 yards. This yaw can skew bullet expansion tests if the medium is shot at 25 yards with different velocities, trying to simulate different ranges.

If you ever want to test your own bullet, try to shoot at a longer distance.
 
ZAZ said:
I wouldn’t think so, partitions and not bonded, depending on the velocity that they impact they typically mushroom down to the A frame partition, (the material ahead of the A frame is lost) and then stop mushrooming, weight retention can be as low as 60% but generally higher 75-85% range.
TSX are solid copper hollow points and vary rarely lose mush weight, they usually retain
+95% weight. However I did have a 180tsx that lost 3 out of the 4 petals but that’s pretty rare, I shot a moose at about 20 yards Through the front shoulder quartering towards me.
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That’s what I figured. I don’t have much experience with a NP but running a light/fast TSX from most calibres sure seems to burn through a lot of animal.
 
Ganderite said:
I have had 2 failures. A 180 gr Norma SP in a 308 in a moose at 424 yrds. Bullet was pristine. Could have been re-loaded and shot again.

A 150 gr Hornady SP at 125 yards. It hit a twig and blew up.

When I was in the ballistics business, my boss kept harping about results being "statistically valid". A result had to have been repeated a number of times, in a number of ways before we thought we knew something. A single incident meant almost nothing. When I tested ammo, I had velocity, pressure readings and even a picture of the bullet exiting the muzzle. Lots of data.

To a hunter, a deer with a clear pencil hole in and out means something. He can't know it was a 1 in 1000 fluke.

The nice thing about CGN is that there are guys here with a lot of experience and they share it.

At CIL we use beeswax to coat some 22 ammo. The wax came in blocks the size of milk crates. When I tested hunting bullets I shot into a block of wax at various velocities.

Testing was done at 100 yards because a bullet has yaw out of the muzzle and wig-wags a bit for the first 100 yards. This yaw can skew bullet expansion tests if the medium is shot at 25 yards with different velocities, trying to simulate different ranges.

If you ever want to test your own bullet, try to shoot at a longer distance.
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Really? and how did you observe this?

On the subject of yaw: I've observed it on paper targets after clipping twigs and even fluffy snow (and of course slow rifling twist). Would never have thought a bullet would be upset that much having scraped an inch or two of fluffy snow but five keyholes resulted having tumbled from the snow in under twenty inches to the target. The tiny twigs I clipped with 90gr varmint bullets in a 270win and they key holed in under a foot of travel from twig to target. It's an interesting subject... I should try paper, fabric and fur/hide as obstructions in front of a target and see how quickly tumbling occurrs.
 
I bought a box of 300 WSM Ballistic Silvertips 2 years ago. Went to load into my LH M70, and the gun jammed. Tried a different shell, and it was fine. There were 8 shells out of 20 that jammed my gun (bolt would only go ahead halfway and get stuck). Got my brother to try them in his XBolt just to see if it was my rifle, but same thing happened. Glad I had decided to just go out and shoot for the hell of it that day. Had it been during deer season it could have been a real pickle. I know lots of guys swear by the ballistic silvertips, but never again for me for that reason.
 
Buckmastr said:
Will a partition out penetrate a Barnes TSX?
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Interesting question, which I think is best answered by, it depends. The Partition's terminal performance is based on losing the frontal section to explosive expansion and the TSX's terminal performance is based on weight retention. Monos are frequently chosen based on their length relative to a known lead core bullet, rather than being equal weight. A lighter bullet can have a higher muzzle velocity, and across moderate ranges, have a higher impact velocity. The greater the impact velocity, normally the more dynamic the rate of expansion, but a mono might expand or it might not expand. A bullet that does not expand will always penetrate deeper, though due to it's tapered profile, penetrate erratically, compared to a bullet of equal caliber and weight and that does expand. If the mono does expand, then its depth of penetration depends on whether or not it retains its petals or looses them. If the TSX retains it's petals, it retains 90% to 100% of its original weight, the expanded caliber increases 1.5X, moving the center of gravity forwards, ensuring straight line penetration. The large frontal area results in increased drag as the bullet passes through tissue, which decays its velocity quickly. The Partition by contrast will lose about a third of it's mass, but it's lead core shank is heavier than the shank of the TSX that's lost its petals, so its velocity decay is more gradual, provided the shanks of both bullets are reduced to their original caliber, which is unlikely. If the TSX expands and retains it's petals, it should be heavier than the shank section of the Partition, and its forward center of gravity should ensure it penetrates straighter, so it might well penetrate deeper, despite the drag of its greater frontal area. Partitions and TSXs both pernitrate deeply enough, when chosen appropriately for the size of game intended, but the terminal performance of the Partition is more predicable, over a broader range of impact velocities. If you wanted to compare the penetration of a TSX and a Swift A-Frame where both retain 95% of their original weight, its no contest.

Edited to add . . .
The longer the bullet, the more its affected by precession (yaw) from a barrel with a given twist. The TSX of equal weight to a lead core bullet is longer and will precess at impact for a longer period of time, which reduces penetration.
 
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