Why groups at long range are the same as close range.

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Maple57

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Anyone who has been on the forums for any amount of time will have come across heated arguments about groups getting better down range than at close range.

I myself have experienced groups that support such a theory (at first glance) but I don't believe it is necessarily that the bullet started flying more straight or more true.

If you look closely at this image, you can see the trace or vapor trail is spiral. I think this spiral explains much of the argument and debate.

I think the reason group sizes can miraculously reduce in size at long range is simply a condition where this spiraling effect becomes synchronized over a number of shots for some un-explained condition, or perhaps just luck.

I also think that if the target was moved forward a few yards, the group would impact somewhere else within the overall spiral pattern. (I have tested for this and evidence inconclusively supports the theory.)

There may also be a rhythm to the spiral where it goes into and out of phase at different distances.

I also suspect that close range groups may not have been in flight long enough to synchronize into a repeatable spiral pattern (out of phase) and impact randomly along the arc of the spiral to produce the larger group.

A hummer is a barrel that simply produces a really small spiral and thereby, really small groups.

All of this in addition to natural dispersion in accordance with the usual ballistic factors.

FfB9XU1.jpg
 
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Does that vapour trail display the actual bullet flight path or an atmospheric condition?

I've seen similar vapour trails from high flying jet aircraft?

Neat pic! thanks for sharing
 
It is 100% the shooter.
Also, that picture is if I remember the post, is of a bullet that’s shedding it’s jacket.
The wind is really the only effect that can change the trajectory mid flight.
If groups got smaller at distance, Bryan Litz would have been $25k lighter by now.
 
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Even if a bullet followed that type of spiral path and eventually stabilized at distance, it wouldn't likely stabilize at the same point of the spiral every time, and that would lead to larger groups than if it happened at shorter distances.
Kristian
 
My theory has always been this:

-Usually when people are shooting for groups, they zoom their scope in all the way
-They also tend to use the same sized target for closer range as they do for further away.
-When you shoot at a 2" circle at 100y, you really don't have to try that hard to keep the reticle inside the 2" circle, so, subconsciously, you don't
-When you shoot at the same 2" circle, but at 500y, now you have to concentrate to keep your reticle inside that circle

But I've been wrong once before ;)
 
*MALICE* said:
My theory has always been this:

-Usually when people are shooting for groups, they zoom their scope in all the way
-They also tend to use the same sized target for closer range as they do for further away.
-When you shoot at a 2" circle at 100y, you really don't have to try that hard to keep the reticle inside the 2" circle, so, subconsciously, you don't
-When you shoot at the same 2" circle, but at 500y, now you have to concentrate to keep your reticle inside that circle

But I've been wrong once before ;)
Click to expand...

Classic "aim small, miss small"

I tend to agree with your theory.
 
The swirl is always there but we can'y always see it. It does not represent the bullet in a huge spiral track as the air is in constant movement. The bullet is already long gone but the effects are slightly delayed and the swirl itself is the interplay of multiple air currents, temperatures, and humidities.
 
Passing threw the Tran-sonic barriers will affect spin.
Thus why sub sonic is effective with large bullets.

No barriers crossed to change spin off bullets.. 1064ft per second and under.
Velocity brings it's own variables.

Lookn @ ELR guys!! Shootin that far.. crazy math ballistic..

But Do-able
 
*MALICE* said:
My theory has always been this:

-Usually when people are shooting for groups, they zoom their scope in all the way
-They also tend to use the same sized target for closer range as they do for further away.
-When you shoot at a 2" circle at 100y, you really don't have to try that hard to keep the reticle inside the 2" circle, so, subconsciously, you don't
-When you shoot at the same 2" circle, but at 500y, now you have to concentrate to keep your reticle inside that circle

But I've been wrong once before ;)
Click to expand...

I know this is 100% me, but I find when I shoot at like 100 I can see every little bit of movement in my reticle on my target and instead of relaxing more, I sometimes fight it and try on muscling it on target and when out at distance I dont notice those little movements so I think Im more relaxed.
 
*MALICE* said:
My theory has always been this:

-Usually when people are shooting for groups, they zoom their scope in all the way
-They also tend to use the same sized target for closer range as they do for further away.
-When you shoot at a 2" circle at 100y, you really don't have to try that hard to keep the reticle inside the 2" circle, so, subconsciously, you don't
-When you shoot at the same 2" circle, but at 500y, now you have to concentrate to keep your reticle inside that circle

But I've been wrong once before ;)
Click to expand...

That's why I like square targets. I aim for the corner of a square so that no matter the distance my aiming point is always the same size. My shooting greatly improved once I stopped using circular targets. That's just my experience, others may differ.
 
jiffx2781 said:
That's why I like square targets. I aim for the corner of a square so that no matter the distance my aiming point is always the same size. My shooting greatly improved once I stopped using circular targets. That's just my experience, others may differ.
Click to expand...

That is called bracketing. You can do the same thing using a circular aiming point .
Cat
 
I am certainly not a competitor - just what I have discovered - never really worked well for me to cover the aiming point with the cross hairs - can visibly move them around and the thing looks to be still covered, so really do not know where you are aiming it. So I found that I liked - white squares for normal duplex type scopes. The vertical and horizontal make that white square into 4 equal squares - totally amazing how well the eye picks up when they are not precisely the same size - so I found it to be easy to repeat the sight picture for the next shots, so long as not actually putting bullet holes in what I am aiming at. The targets that I print up used to have a 2" square white centre with 1" thick black rim - (getting older - now have 3" white square centers - easier to see, work just as well) then a very faint dotted one inch circle centered 2" above centre of square. For my hunting rifles - aim at centre of white square - really hoping to plunk 3 or 5 into that 1" circle about 2" high over aiming point at 100 yards. Took lots of game with that kind of "sighting in"...
 
There is a theory out there among some long range shooter groups (ie Fullbore) that the bullet will naturally spiral the greatest, closer near the shooter but as the distance opens up, the spiral will get tighter.

The term used is that the bullet goes to "sleep" and the wobble stabilizes.

This may result in tighter groups at distance. Some maintain that this "bullet going to sleep phenomena" is different for different rifles.
For some rifles this might occur at 4 or 5 hundred yards, for others is might be closer.

I've experienced myself many groups at say 1.5 MOA at 200 yds which shrinks to 1 MOA or more at 300 or 400 yds. Same rifle , same ammo, same shooter, same day.

Could it be the bullet yaw at the muzzle results in a spiral through the air and stabilizes at distance? I'm not sure but I know some long range club members with a lot more experience than me absolutely believe this.
 
PSE said:
There is a theory out there among some long range shooter groups (ie Fullbore) that the bullet will naturally spiral the greatest, closer near the shooter but as the distance opens up, the spiral will get tighter.

The term used is that the bullet goes to "sleep" and the wobble stabilizes.

This may result in tighter groups at distance. Some maintain that this "bullet going to sleep phenomena" is different for different rifles.
For some rifles this might occur at 4 or 5 hundred yards, for others is might be closer.

I've experienced myself many groups at say 1.5 MOA at 200 yds which shrinks to 1 MOA or more at 300 or 400 yds. Same rifle , same ammo, same shooter, same day.

Could it be the bullet yaw at the muzzle results in a spiral through the air and stabilizes at distance? I'm not sure but I know some long range club members with a lot more experience than me absolutely believe this.
Click to expand...

Projectiles don't "go to sleep".
 
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