358's

[9.3 Hunter]

I'm getting .50 moa and 2950fps with Barnes 200gr TTSX (Ramshot Tac) in my Rem 700 35 Whelan, topped with a Trijicon 3x9x40 and green tiny chip at crosshair), Its very accurate and fairly flat shooting. If I really wanted to stretch the range past 400yds I would just put a Leupold 3x9 with the LR reticle and use the aiming points. I dont use it hardly as my main Moose gun for a number of yrs is a T3 Hunter 9.3x62 with Leupold 2x7.

I have 4 rounds for my BLR stainless LW in 358Win, all .50 moa, and I use Warne QD rings for changeouts:
1. Leupold VII 2.5x8, 200gr (Tac) TSX 2700fps, sighted in 3" @ 100yds.
2. Leupold III 1x4, 220gr Speer HC 2470fps (W748) sighted in 1.5" @ 100yds, (this is my main load I like using, also iron sights sighted in 1"@ 50yds and 1 holes).
3. Burris 30mm 1x4 tiny red dot on the German #4 reticle, 158gr XTPs (RL7) 2750fps, sighted in 0 @ 100yds, 357 on steroids - the plinking round, fun as heck and I use a factory crimp die for .358 on these ... not great for long range and they do disintegrate.
4. a 225gr TSX (Tac) load great groups but 2480fps, good for maybe out to 200yds to open up, so I did up the 200gr TSX and voila.

The BLR LW is my bush gun mainly with the Speer 220s, but can also use for longer ranges.

 

[hoytcanon]

I have a Ruger Frontier in .358 it has a 16.5 “ barrel, I load the 250 Hornady SP with 40 grains of IMR4198 I don’t know the velocity but it is deadly, accurate and shoots flat enough to 300 yards for anything that walks in B.C.

You gotta love the Frontier .358, eh? For just pure enjoyment and utility, by far my favorite rifle.

 

[conor_90]

How much do they weigh in at without a scope or rings?

 

[hoytcanon]

How much do they weigh in at without a scope or rings?

They are robust little suckers... Not going to strip it down, but you can do the math, wearing a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5X20mm and a "big boy" stock, not the original short LOP stock;

 

[bunny]

You gotta love the Frontier .358, eh? For just pure enjoyment and utility, by far my favorite rifle.

I agree, also have one in .308 could never figure out why they are very popular, to me they are one of the best hunting rigs ever made.

 

[conor_90]

Kimber and tikka have us all spoiled, that is a light rifle by any stretch of the imagination

 

[Rick]

Your conclusion at the end regarding factory .358 loads of 225 and 250 grains (being little better than the .35 Rem offerings) was not considering who these loads were marketed to... which were mid-western and Eastern WT and BB hunters, largely short range scenarios, where a heavier/slower bullet performs very well... it made sense, the problem was that most of those hunters were shooting .30-30's with a 170 grain Silver Tip and saw no reason to change.

Marketing decisions have nothing to do with internal ballistics factors like expansion ratio. It might make sense from a marketing point to load the .358 Winchester with 225 and 250 grain bullets because that's what 35 Remington hunters were used to. The idea that a 200 grain or 180 grain bullet wouldn't perform just as well on a whitetail as a 225 or 250 grain bullet is just that - an idea. The guys using 180 grain bullets in their 30 caliber rifles at the same time the .358 Winchester was introduced weren't reporting the 180 grain .30 caliber bullet was lacking...

Which links up to the old wives tale that heavy blunt bullets "buck the brush". And while I wasn't around at the time of the .358 Winchester's introduction, I'm sure that was part of the failed (ultimately) sales job.

Black bears, whitetails, whatever, if the owner thinks a 250 grain bullet that intrudes into the powder space gives them some sort of advantage at whatever range he has in mind, versus a 180 or 200 grain bullet at much higher velocities, then I think that owner should use those slower, heavier bullets. I'll stick with 180 grain bullets and be equally confident in my .358 for deer, elk, and moose.

 

[conor_90]

Finally a 308 based cartridge that fires 180 grain bullets

 

[hoytcanon]

Marketing decisions have nothing to do with internal ballistics factors like expansion ratio. It might make sense from a marketing point to load the .358 Winchester with 225 and 250 grain bullets because that's what 35 Remington hunters were used to. The idea that a 200 grain or 180 grain bullet wouldn't perform just as well on a whitetail as a 225 or 250 grain bullet is just that - an idea. The guys using 180 grain bullets in their 30 caliber rifles at the same time the .358 Winchester was introduced weren't reporting the 180 grain .30 caliber bullet was lacking...

Which links up to the old wives tale that heavy blunt bullets "buck the brush". And while I wasn't around at the time of the .358 Winchester's introduction, I'm sure that was part of the failed (ultimately) sales job.

Black bears, whitetails, whatever, if the owner thinks a 250 grain bullet that intrudes into the powder space gives them some sort of advantage at whatever range he has in mind, versus a 180 or 200 grain bullet at much higher velocities, then I think that owner should use those slower, heavier bullets. I'll stick with 180 grain bullets and be equally confident in my .358 for deer, elk, and moose.

This really is just a distraction from what we were talking about related to velocity increases per additional inch of barrel length between larger and smaller bores...

But... I really don't see the point or significant advantage of shooting 180 grain loads in the .358 vs .308... expansion ratio gains increase in differential as the bullet weight increases. I think the sweet spot for .358 Win is between 200 and 225 grains. To each their own though, you can certainly kill stuff with lighter and heavier bullets, for me, I will keep it in the sweet spot for the cartridge.

 

[Rick]

This really is just a distraction from what we were talking about related to velocity increases per additional inch of barrel length between larger and smaller bores...

It's not a distraction. It's the crux of the matter when you're looking at velocity gains/losses relating to bore diameter and barrel length.

The previous question was whether anyone hunted with longer barreled .358 Winchester rifles. My BLR is rebarreled to 24" versus the standard 20" Browning sold them with as short barreled carbines/"bush rifles". There is quite a significant difference when the result is being able to drive 180 grain bullets at slightly better than the velocity of a 180 grain bullet out of a 30-06 with an identical barrel length.

Assuming a constant powder weight, the expansion ratio rises in proportion with the bore length and the square of the bore diameter (caliber). Thus, if you were to double the caliber, it would have the same effect as quadrupling the bore length. That is expansion ratio. The bullet shape and/or weight has nothing to do with it; it's about volume.

Compare the same make and model of 180 grain hunting bullets in the same barrel length, comparing by both charge weight required and resulting muzzle velocity.

358 Win: 45 grains of powder will result in a reloading manual velocity of 2850 fps.
308 Win: 41 grains of powder will result in a reloading manual best velocity of 2600 fps.
30-06: 59 grains of powder will result in a reloading manual best velocity of 2800 fps.​

That's expansion ratio on display.

Or if you want to look at it another way, look at the best velocity you can get with a 130 grain bullet in a 25-06 versus in a 30-06 in the same barrel lengths. The best you will get out of a 25-06 is around 3100 fps, using somewhere around 55 grains of powder. The 30-06, on the other hand, can provide 3350 fps - and provide that extra 250 fps using the same weight of powder charge.

Higher expansion ratios provide for higher efficiency in burning powder. Which is reflected in (for those obsessed with velocity) using faster burning powders the shorter the barrel gets - and longer barrels on magnum calibers where the owners want to see high velocity numbers. Nobody wants a 7mm Remington Magnum with a 22" barrel...

But... I really don't see the point or significant advantage of shooting 180 grain loads in the .358 vs .308... expansion ratio gains increase in differential as the bullet weight increases.

Bullet weight has nothing whatsoever to do with expansion ratio. It's a factor related to volume, not projectile shape or weight.

I think the sweet spot for .358 Win is between 200 and 225 grains.

If you believe that is true, then of course you should continue using those loads. Even if you came to that conclusion because you believe the bullet weight is a factor in the expansion ratio.

For myself, unless hunting with cast bullets in a .358 (which the cartridge excels at), I see no point to a bullet weighing heavier than 200 grains in a .358 unless it is the camp bear wrench in areas where grumbly bears are a concern. Which around here, they are.

When 30/06's firing 180 grain bullets at slightly lower velocities than a .358 Winchester can for the same barrel length have been putting moose, caribou, elk, deer, etc in the freezer for over a century, I don't think a .358 Winchester loaded with a 180 grain bullet is giving anything up - other than producing less recoil while doing it.

 

[hoytcanon]

It's not a distraction. It's the crux of the matter when you're looking at velocity gains/losses relating to bore diameter and barrel length.

The previous question was whether anyone hunted with longer barreled .358 Winchester rifles. My BLR is rebarreled to 24" versus the standard 20" Browning sold them with as short barreled carbines/"bush rifles". There is quite a significant difference when the result is being able to drive 180 grain bullets at slightly better than the velocity of a 180 grain bullet out of a 30-06 with an identical barrel length.

Assuming a constant powder weight, the expansion ratio rises in proportion with the bore length and the square of the bore diameter (caliber). Thus, if you were to double the caliber, it would have the same effect as quadrupling the bore length. That is expansion ratio. The bullet shape and/or weight has nothing to do with it; it's about volume.

Compare the same make and model of 180 grain hunting bullets in the same barrel length, comparing by both charge weight required and resulting muzzle velocity.

358 Win: 45 grains of powder will result in a reloading manual velocity of 2850 fps.
308 Win: 41 grains of powder will result in a reloading manual best velocity of 2600 fps.
30-06: 59 grains of powder will result in a reloading manual best velocity of 2800 fps.​

That's expansion ratio on display.

Or if you want to look at it another way, look at the best velocity you can get with a 130 grain bullet in a 25-06 versus in a 30-06 in the same barrel lengths. The best you will get out of a 25-06 is around 3100 fps, using somewhere around 55 grains of powder. The 30-06, on the other hand, can provide 3350 fps - and provide that extra 250 fps using the same weight of powder charge.

Higher expansion ratios provide for higher efficiency in burning powder. Which is reflected in (for those obsessed with velocity) using faster burning powders the shorter the barrel gets - and longer barrels on magnum calibers where the owners want to see high velocity numbers. Nobody wants a 7mm Remington Magnum with a 22" barrel...



Bullet weight has nothing whatsoever to do with expansion ratio. It's a factor related to volume, not projectile shape or weight.

I was talking about comparative gains as a result of expansion ratio differentials between .308" and .358" bores... those gains are not linear although the ratio remains constant.

If you believe that is true, then of course you should continue using those loads. Even if you came to that conclusion because you believe the bullet weight is a factor in the expansion ratio.

For myself, unless hunting with cast bullets in a .358 (which the cartridge excels at), I see no point to a bullet weighing heavier than 200 grains in a .358 unless it is the camp bear wrench in areas where grumbly bears are a concern. Which around here, they are.

When 30/06's firing 180 grain bullets at slightly lower velocities than a .358 Winchester can for the same barrel length have been putting moose, caribou, elk, deer, etc in the freezer for over a century, I don't think a .358 Winchester loaded with a 180 grain bullet is giving anything up - other than producing less recoil while doing it.

I don't have the attention span or energy to read long diatribes, but from a quick scan I would say that you have again bypassed your two conflicting assertions that were previously quoted. I posted one response in bold in the body of your quote...in the meantime, you be you... I'm going to bed, gotta get up at 4 am for a duck hunt.