Substituting steel shot with TSS shot? Pressure up? Or down?

0faustus0

0faustus0

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Ok, I though I might ask the collective knowledge on here ...

I want to come up with a subsonic 12ga TSS load that would have a velocity of around 900 - 1000fps. The reason is ... my little 870 Tac-14 has become my favorite woods bumming/small game gun ..... but ufffffffffff ... she is loud with the 14" barrel and without hearing protection. :-(

( link to image )

So, I found a couple of published steel shot recipes and for which I have all the components for.

My question now is, what would happen if I substitute the steel shot with equal weight of TSS shot of about roughly the same size, and add some filler to make up for the difference in volume? Would pressures go up or down? And why?

Again the substitution would be same weight .... so same payload.

Here are the recipes .... as you can see they are not subsonic yet .... one is close though ... I would have to decrease the powder load a bit.

Load with Hodgdon International Clays
(from the Advantages Manual)
• Cheddite hull 2 ¾, 12ga
• Cheddite Primer 209
• International Clays Powder - 18 grains
• FS12 gas seal
• LBC30 wad
• ¾ oz of steel shot (#7 or #6)
• 7800 PSI (SAAMI Max: 11,500 PSI)
• 1140 FPS (Speed of sound: 1125 FPS)


Load with Hodgdon Clays
(from the Advantages Manual)
• Cheddite hull 2 ¾, 12ga
• Cheddite Primer 209
• Clays Powder - 18 grains
• FS12 gas seal
• LBC30 wad
• ¾ oz of steel shot (#7 or #6)
• 9200 PSI (SAAMI Max: 11,500 PSI)
• 1300 FPS (Speed of sound: 1125 FPS)


Load with Hodgdon Titewad
(from the Advantages Manual)
• Cheddite hull 2 ¾, 12ga
• Cheddite Primer 209
• Titewad Powder - 17 grains
• FS12 gas seal
• LBC30 wad
• ¾ oz of steel shot (#7 or #6)
• 1050 PSI (SAAMI Max: 11,500 PSI)
• 1330 FPS (Speed of sound: 1125 FPS)


Note:
Please don't tell me to stick to published recipes and for shotshell reloading. This will be a subsonic load that will be far far far below SAAMI max pressures.
 
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The only way that you will know what the pressure that your loads developed is to have them tested by a qualified lab.
Clearly, you don't want advice that's conservative and safe.
I'm out.
 
saskbooknut said:
The only way that you will know what the pressure that your loads developed is to have them tested by a qualified lab.
Clearly, you don't want advice that's conservative and safe.
I'm out.
Click to expand...

Saskbooknut .... I appreciate the response ... ! Thanks for the input.
But I have done enough shotshell reloading and load development to understand what I am trying to do there ... and to understand the risks .... :)
 
0faustus0 said:
Saskbooknut .... I appreciate the response ... ! Thanks for the input.
But I have done enough shotshell reloading to understand what I am trying to do there ... and to understand the risks .... :)
Click to expand...

Glad you think so. Your initial post says differently
Wasting TSS reloading TSS shot in a 12ga at 100 bucks a pound in a bumming gun says it all to me about experience. 410 & 28ga is the only place I use it in place of bismuth hunting loads
Then there is using 12ga cheddite hulls LOL Priceless to this old shotgun reloader can we say JUNK JUNK JUNK and waste of good powder & components
Fill your boots and best of luck and cannot wait to see what other experienced shotshell reloaders say
Cheers
 
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3macs1 said:
Glad you think so. Your initial post says differently
Wasting TSS reloading TSS shot in a 12ga at 100 bucks a pound in a bumming gun says it all to me about experience. 410 & 28ga is the only place I use it in place of bismuth hunting loads
Then there is using 12ga cheddite hulls LOL Priceless to this old shotgun reloader can we say JUNK JUNK JUNK and waste of good powder & components
Fill your boots and best of luck and cannot wait to see what other experienced shotshell reloaders say
Cheers
Click to expand...

3macs1, I would assume that some of those experienced TSS reloaders on here have the answer to my question and based on empirical observation and pressure testing. Actually I know that some experienced TSS reloaders in the US have the answer .... I just need a couple more confirmations and to trust that information!

So, what is it .... up or down?

Or, I don't know? And "I'm out also".
 
0faustus0 said:
3macs1, I would assume that some of those experienced TSS reloaders on here have the answer to my question and based on empirical observation and pressure testing. Actually I know that some experienced TSS reloaders in the US have the answer .... I just need a couple more confirmations and to trust that information!

So, what is it .... up or down?

Or, I don't know? And "I'm out also".
Click to expand...

Post 2 from saskbooknut sums it up as he quoted below and out on this is a good thing for you

The only way that you will know what the pressure that your loads developed is to have them tested by a qualified lab.
Clearly, you don't want advice that's conservative and safe.
 
3macs1 said:
Post 2 from saskbooknut sums it up as he quoted below and out on this is a good thing for you

The only way that you will know what the pressure that your loads developed is to have them tested by a qualified lab.
Clearly, you don't want advice that's conservative and safe.
Click to expand...

Thank you 3macs1, .... so you are a man of your word?

"I'm out also"
 
Yep and been pulling handles reloading shotgun since 1965 some years 25,000 rounds and have never played with non published and tested rounds and never an undesirable incident either as a result IMHO
Take care
 
3macs1 said:
Yep and been pulling handles reloading shotgun since 1965 some years 25,000 rounds and have never played with non published and tested rounds and never an undesirable incident either as a result IMHO
Take care
Click to expand...

3macs1, I appreciate your input! And this is great! Most people should probably follow your example.
However, I am a little bit more adventurous ... and I like to explore managed risks.

Can we say, we just have a different opinion ... and be civil about it?

By the way .... you are the reason why I bought a Remington 1100 last year ... I had this big smile on my face when I first shot it ....

Ok, but you are out of this thread .... right?
 
Yes I am out other than to say I like my hands and face and my guns too much to gamble when there is no reason to do so. I still have close to 2 dozen of 1100's in every gauge they made them in Glad you like yours
Want to load TSS fine do it as provided in published approved and properly tested reloads
Take care
 
Maybe a different angle: have you tried to see what sub-sonic lead shot loads sound / feel like to your ears to know if this is even worth it?

I would suggest contacting BP to see if they can steer you in the right direction (which may be opposite to the one you want) but at least they may have already tried this.

If I had to guess I would say all things being equal and you lowered the powder charge and used a fibre wad under the shot instead of more buffer pressures would go down - but - as you should already know - things are almost always not equal when messing around with shotshell loads.
 
Well - If the mass is the same, and the friction is the same with the TSS load, then the pressure would be the same for the powder charges you quote. The question begs, why bother developing a subsonic TSS load?
 
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cosmic said:
Well - If the mass is the same, and the friction is the same with the TSS load, then the pressure would be the same for the powder charges you quote. The question begs, why bother developing a subsonic TSS load?
Click to expand...

I'm guessing it's because the density of TSS is so much higher than other metals used for shot and the thinking is he can get terminal performance from TSS similar to Lead with a much lower muzzle velocity (noise) and as a bonus lower recoil.

from Prairiewind Decoys site:
8 g/cc Steel
11 g/cc Nickel Plated lead
12 g/cc Hevi-13
15 g/cc Fed HWT
18 g/cc TSS
 
0faustus0 said:
By the way .... just sharing this for information.

And I have to agree with 3macs1 and saskbooknut ... stick to published and pressure tested recipes if you don't know what you are doing ....

3macs1, you are out and not allowed to respond .... ok? ;)


https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/important-information-about-shotshell-pressures.html
Click to expand...

You have a lot to learn if you seriously think you know what you are doing and playing may cost you big time
JUST ONE EXAMPLE and yes this will be my last time trying to open your eyes
Not my words below
Cheers
Not to long ago I found out that many of my 12 ga coyote and goose loads that I reloaded using BPI's Handloading Hevi-Shot Fourth Edition manual have way to high of pressures.

I sent off some 12 ga 2-3/4" 1-3/8 oz loads to have tested. I based these loads off of BPI and RSI's Hevi-Shot and Heavyweight shot reloading data for 12 ga 2-3/4" 1-1/4 oz loads. I lowered the powder charge 4.0 grains and raised the shot charge 1/8 of an ounce. The results were 15,808 psi average or 4,308 psi over Max allowable pressure.

That pressure pretty much had me shocked when I saw it.

So I sent off some of the 12 ga 3" Fiocchi 1-1/2 oz loads with 35.0 gr of Steel Powder that the BPI manual shows to have 10,800 psi. I have at least 400 of these shells loaded. These loads averaged 14,918 psi or 3,418 psi over Max allowable pressure.

So now I am in the process of taking hundreds of Steel Powder reloads apart to lower the shot charge weights or lower the powder charges to get the pressures under Max.

Yesterday I sent off some more Alliant Steel Powder loads to be tested at Precision Reloading. I will post the results on this thread when I get the test sheets back in 10 to 14 days.

Now if he was an experienced reloader he would know ( from the test lab)

Alliant steel has been impossible to get for a couple of years until late last year when it returned.
This latest Steel is hotter than the powder that was on sale prior to this.
There are several factors that are occurring. The 4th ed. of the Hevi-shot manual is almost 15 years old and was discontinued from print years ago. It is definitely not up to date with new components and manufacturing changes and should not be used .

· A few years ago Fiocchi made changes to the basewad of their hulls. The material composition, shape and thickness of the interior basewad changed. This in and of itself is sufficient to change the pressures in old load recipes.

· Hevi-shot has also seen changes over the years. The material composition varies, which in turn effects the density. Density variations in shot will effect pressure, which is the number 1 reason why differing shot types can never be interchanged in a load recipe.

· Current lots of Steel powder are not the same as older lots. There has been significant performance changes in lots of this propellant over time.

· Current Piezoelectric testing equipment and transducers are much more accurate than they were 15 years ago. We use the most current models in our test facilities. I cannot verify what equipment is used at the facility you had your loads tested.

STOP believing general data published in 2014 before you hurt yourself_

Cheers________________________
 
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0faustus0 said:
Ok, I though I might ask the collective knowledge on here ...

I want to come up with a subsonic 12ga TSS load that would have a velocity of around 900 - 1000fps. The reason is ... my little 870 Tac-14 has become my favorite woods bumming/small game gun ..... but ufffffffffff ... she is loud with the 14" barrel and without hearing protection. :-(

( link to image )

So, I found a couple of published steel shot recipes and for which I have all the components for.

My question now is, what would happen if I substitute the steel shot with equal weight of TSS shot of about roughly the same size, and add some filler to make up for the difference in volume? Would pressures go up or down? And why?

Again the substitution would be same weight .... so same payload.

Here are the recipes .... as you can see they are not subsonic yet .... one is close though ... I would have to decrease the powder load a bit.

Load with Hodgdon International Clays
(from the Advantages Manual)
• Cheddite hull 2 ¾, 12ga
• Cheddite Primer 209
• International Clays Powder - 18 grains
• FS12 gas seal
• LBC30 wad
• ¾ oz of steel shot (#7 or #6)
• 7800 PSI (SAAMI Max: 11,500 PSI)
• 1140 FPS (Speed of sound: 1125 FPS)


Load with Hodgdon Clays
(from the Advantages Manual)
• Cheddite hull 2 ¾, 12ga
• Cheddite Primer 209
• Clays Powder - 18 grains
• FS12 gas seal
• LBC30 wad
• ¾ oz of steel shot (#7 or #6)
• 9200 PSI (SAAMI Max: 11,500 PSI)
• 1300 FPS (Speed of sound: 1125 FPS)


Load with Hodgdon Titewad
(from the Advantages Manual)
• Cheddite hull 2 ¾, 12ga
• Cheddite Primer 209
• Titewad Powder - 17 grains
• FS12 gas seal
• LBC30 wad
• ¾ oz of steel shot (#7 or #6)
• 1050 PSI (SAAMI Max: 11,500 PSI)
• 1330 FPS (Speed of sound: 1125 FPS)


Note:
Please don't tell me to stick to published recipes and for shotshell reloading. This will be a subsonic load that will be far far far below SAAMI max pressures.
Click to expand...


I know he’s been dead for 300 years, but I feel like my boy Newton would have some pretty definitive thoughts on this…

If all other components and variables remain the same, and the weight of the payload remains the same… then speed, pressure, noise, and energy are all going to stay the same. The only foreseeable difference I can imagine is that there would be twice as much space in the shot cup, which could mean less lateral forces during acceleration and less constriction while moving through a choke, which would mean slightly lower pressure If anything.
 
3macs1 said:
You have a lot to learn if you seriously think you know what you are doing and playing may cost you big time
JUST ONE EXAMPLE
Not my words below
Cheers
Not to long ago I found out that many of my 12 ga coyote and goose loads that I reloaded using BPI's Handloading Hevi-Shot Fourth Edition manual have way to high of pressures.

I sent off some 12 ga 2-3/4" 1-3/8 oz loads to have tested. I based these loads off of BPI and RSI's Hevi-Shot and Heavyweight shot reloading data for 12 ga 2-3/4" 1-1/4 oz loads. I lowered the powder charge 4.0 grains and raised the shot charge 1/8 of an ounce. The results were 15,808 psi average or 4,308 psi over Max allowable pressure.

That pressure pretty much had me shocked when I saw it.

So I sent off some of the 12 ga 3" Fiocchi 1-1/2 oz loads with 35.0 gr of Steel Powder that the BPI manual shows to have 10,800 psi. I have at least 400 of these shells loaded. These loads averaged 14,918 psi or 3,418 psi over Max allowable pressure.

So now I am in the process of taking hundreds of Steel Powder reloads apart to lower the shot charge weights or lower the powder charges to get the pressures under Max.

Yesterday I sent off some more Alliant Steel Powder loads to be tested at Precision Reloading. I will post the results on this thread when I get the test sheets back in 10 to 14 days.
Click to expand...


The fella you’re quoting increased the payload weight by 10%. That’s not what the OP had mentioned.

Now if he was an experienced reloader he would know ( from the test lab)

Alliant steel has been impossible to get for a couple of years until late last year when it returned.
This latest Steel is hotter than the powder that was on sale prior to this.
There are several factors that are occurring. The 4th ed. of the Hevi-shot manual is almost 15 years old and was discontinued from print years ago. It is definitely not up to date with new components and manufacturing changes and should not be used .

· A few years ago Fiocchi made changes to the basewad of their hulls. The material composition, shape and thickness of the interior basewad changed. This in and of itself is sufficient to change the pressures in old load recipes.

· Hevi-shot has also seen changes over the years. The material composition varies, which in turn effects the density. Density variations in shot will effect pressure, which is the number 1 reason why differing shot types can never be interchanged in a load recipe.

· Current lots of Steel powder are not the same as older lots. There has been significant performance changes in lots of this propellant over time.

· Current Piezoelectric testing equipment and transducers are much more accurate than they were 15 years ago. We use the most current models in our test facilities. I cannot verify what equipment is used at the facility you had your loads tested.

STOP believing general data published in 2014 before you hurt yourself_

Cheers________________________
Click to expand...

Those are all important things to consider when reloading… but they would be equally important for ANY load being developed.
 
kodiakjack said:
The fella you’re quoting increased the payload weight by 10%. That’s not what the OP had mentioned.



Those are all important things to consider when reloading… but they would be equally important for ANY load being developed.
Click to expand...

Load a lot of shotgun also.??? The OP is switching out steel shot for TSS density is the issue like 7.8 to 18 g/cc and worse than the example . Have never developed a load for shotgun in almost 60 years and do from 410 to 10ga in every type of shot made to date . Nothing like reloading rifle etc and not done in shotshell reloading at any home bench I know of
as quoted by the lab above
Density variations in shot will effect pressure, which is the number 1 reason why differing shot types can never be interchanged in a load recipe.
Plus I have no clue why I am going on about this since unless he has the TSS shot in his hand he is not going to find any right now any where in canada
I know of only two guys that even tried it and both for 28ga and 410 which is what it is made for and I was one. 100 bucks a pound and a 2.5 pound bottle min size not something one wants to waste. yep like $5.50 a round in the 28ga and that is just for shot :(
Cheers
Christ now he thinks my fellow yanks are going to ship him TSS shot and declare it on the forms as ball bearings
wmbS5Mz.gif


Not me getting ignored here and not taken seriously . I have nothing to prove to you or anyone when it comes to reloading shotshells properly and safely nor will I hang with the crows that think they can do it differently with untested loads on their own with the internet experts for support. remember again now why I left for over a year and a 1/2 and should have ignored the pm's wanting me to come back. Guys with 30/40/50/ years experience reloading shotgun are gone from nutz and now we have internet reloaders ay best when shotguns are concerned
I would bet there is not 10 here total reloading steel and/or TSS
 
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