Vz-58 Vs Ar??
- Thread starter Clobbersauras
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ar for service rifle and accuracy .......no contest
but for 100m and under ........the cz is hard to beat! cheap to buy cheap to feed and reasonably accurate, ( i would love to try one with an EOTECH ) You can buy one and litterally shoot thousands of rounds for what an
AR would cost
its kinda like comparing a an expensive car with a cheap one
but for 100m and under ........the cz is hard to beat! cheap to buy cheap to feed and reasonably accurate, ( i would love to try one with an EOTECH ) You can buy one and litterally shoot thousands of rounds for what an
AR would cost
its kinda like comparing a an expensive car with a cheap one
I'm probably one of the only guys on this board to have shot people with both 7.62x39 and 5.56mm. Guess what round I prefer
That being said Kev,
Did you ever encounter a situation where you would have felt seriously under-gunned becuse whatever gun you were carrying fired 7.62x39 as opposed to 5.56? After all, they DO make AR's in 7.62x39 as well.
I have NOT shot PEOPLE with either round, but I have shot living creatures with both, I never felt either round was overly lacking.
Yes
but keep in mind I was using M43 ball.
The VAST majority of usage with 7.62x39 is with ball ammo -- and compared to the terminal effect of 5.56mm (be it M855 or perferably Mk262) is a lot better.
Plus I have some M995 lack Tip AP for those pesky armoured issue -- where as shooting M43 at a barrier - you may as well use a 30-30
but keep in mind I was using M43 ball.
The VAST majority of usage with 7.62x39 is with ball ammo -- and compared to the terminal effect of 5.56mm (be it M855 or perferably Mk262) is a lot better.
Plus I have some M995 lack Tip AP for those pesky armoured issue -- where as shooting M43 at a barrier - you may as well use a 30-30
^is m43 really that bad?
What are the major drawbacks? I know it is a slow round compared to 5.56. I've also heard that it can just punch a hole through someone causing less trauma than a bullet that fragments, mushrooms, or tumbles. Is this true?
Also, what causes the shortcomings of M43 ball? Is the projectile just too heavy for the load in the cartrige?
What are the major drawbacks? I know it is a slow round compared to 5.56. I've also heard that it can just punch a hole through someone causing less trauma than a bullet that fragments, mushrooms, or tumbles. Is this true?
Also, what causes the shortcomings of M43 ball? Is the projectile just too heavy for the load in the cartrige?
The chart above is strictly a "representation of flesh". Sorry, I should have pointed that out. Terminally, 7.62x39 sucks when compared to others. Here are some more popular calibres and their terminal performance. Soft armour makes no difference, rifle rounds have no issue penetrating soft armour. Hard armour, or SAPI plates will stop all rounds listed above. As for the difference clothing or armour(soft) would have on terminal effects, I have no solid answer. I would imagine it wouldn't make much difference.
TDC
TDC
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Keep in mind the TSWG round is not JAG approved for unrestricted landwarfare usage (damn lawyers 
)
The 7x46 Murray round looks to be the best assault rifle cartidge - with the 6.8 being the best compromise in the M16FOW design.
I have no issued with carrying Mk262 and M995
) The 7x46 Murray round looks to be the best assault rifle cartidge - with the 6.8 being the best compromise in the M16FOW design.
I have no issued with carrying Mk262 and M995
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I'm probably one of the only guys on this board to have shot people with both 7.62x39 and 5.56mm. Guess what round I prefer
BigRed as well -- and he runs 5.56mm too
Gee shocker
Sheeze - I didn't realize this thread was resurected...and long after I got rid of the VZ too
? I just couldn't stand the side mounted optic I had on the VZ though I think the PKAS is one of the best sights out there and tough as a tank, wish they would make a conventional version and a little smaller.Kev - B. One question. And you don't have to go into details
...what happened when you shot the people with both rounds...did the 5.56 guys die instantly and the 7.62 guys just shrug it off?
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My guess is that the top two and bottom two do less trauma damage than the four in the middle. Not sure how the scale applies to human limbs and torsos, but with deeper penetration and no fracturing of the bullet it seems like they could exit in one peice without turning into shrapnel. I assume this would make the wounds easier to patch up, no bullet peices to dig out and remove.
You tell me why M43 sucks
TDC
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John,
You would be correct. projectiles that exit obviously are not depositing their energy into the target(causing damage). The M995 AP round was intended to penetrate armour. This requires a more robust projectile design and comes at the price of not having the terminal effects of other 5.56 projectiles.
The increased penetration of the 4 you mention is more suitable for barrier penetration. Specific tools for specific jobs. Hence why shot placement plays a greater role than specific load.
TDC
You would be correct. projectiles that exit obviously are not depositing their energy into the target(causing damage). The M995 AP round was intended to penetrate armour. This requires a more robust projectile design and comes at the price of not having the terminal effects of other 5.56 projectiles.
The increased penetration of the 4 you mention is more suitable for barrier penetration. Specific tools for specific jobs. Hence why shot placement plays a greater role than specific load.
TDC
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Regular
- Location
- South Ontario
I haven't read all the 8 pages, but I just finished cleaning from shooting my CZ-858 and my Armalite M4. Had some newbies fire both as well. A few notes:
CZ-858 is easy to transition to. Great iron sights, like the SKS/AK sites, but more refined somehow, with a clear and fast picture. Mine came sighted in perfectly. Low recoil in the 18.5" inch model. Great balance (except for the long barrel), I love the way it fits people with regular to small frames. A dream to strip and clean, no complicated little pieces, doesn't crap where it eats.
But here's the bad part. First, I had the CZ-858 'Gremlin.' The distributor was very good and fixed it, but it was aggravating going to the range and experiencing those problems until it was finally fixed. I'm still not sure about the rifle's reliability. People with the milspec VZ-58 models seem to have better success. I've handled those carbines, and they are nice.
Second problem is the lack of non-corrosive 7.62X39. With clean ammo, cleaning is a synch, doesn't even really need to be cleaned all that often I bet. But with corrosive ammo, especially that Czech and Hungarian stuff, you need to clean whether you've shot 1 or 100 rounds. It took me 4 hours of cleaning my 858 yesterday, before I was satisfied. GET A CHROME BORE!
As for the AR, great accessories are available. I put a EOTech on mine, with no prior experience, in about 20 minutes, had it zeroed well before the end of the range session. Try that with a CZ-858. Putting quality optics on an AR is like LEGO. Same for other accessories. VZ-58 is more limited, though you can still get some good accessories for it if you look.
AR is more accurate, no contest. The VZ-58s seem to shoot between about 2-4 MOA with factory ammo (better than most 7.62X39 semi-autos), ARs can shoot well under 2MOA, depending on modifications and ammo.
I have to admit I hate the 'fit' of the stock AR. That grip is like a Glock, and the tube stock was not made for civilian shooters. But its easier to fit an AR to your body with mods than it is to fix a VZ-58 ergonomics. Controls are easier to reach and faster on an AR, though I find the VZ-58 design more comfortable overall.
The best part about the AR-15 is that it can legally use those 10-round LAR-15 magazines. That, and mag changes are way faster with an AR than a VZ-58 (though the stripper clips on a VZ would be almost as good if it was allowed to use 10-round magazines.)
FWIW, we found that the perceived recoil of a stock M4 configuration AR-15 is worse than a stock CZ-858, but it's probably different with the midlength and full-length AR-15.
In short, if you are looking for a rifle that can put a lot of rounds downrange fast, with compatibility for all the best optics, maximum customizability, and a lot of possibilities for overall length, get the AR.
If you want a blaster that you can take anywhere, get the CZ-858 or the new chrome barrel non-restricted model. The restricted model still has advantages as the VZ-58 series will fire all that cheap surplus that is half the cost of most AR-15 ammo. And the rifle costs half of a new AR-15.
AR-15s are more versatile because of their modularity, but are restricted and expensive. The quality of construction is higher, but it depends on how much you need. The military VZ-58 is pretty well built, but now you're talking about a restricted model. I enjoy firing my CZ-858 more than my AR, because I don't have to think about the cost of each bullet, and I can buy ammo in 1120 round cases for next to nothing. This allows you to experiment with improving your technique at the range at less cost than with an AR.
VZ-58 is fun. I don't know about practical uses, though I think I saw a video on CGN a while back of someone shooting a predator with a CZ-858, putting it down and avoiding potential harm to humans. Funny thing is that both are a real pain to clean, the AR because you've got to clean every nook and cranny if you want to feel safe that the rifle is going to be reliable, and the CZ-858 because of the corrosive ammo. You'll still clean the AR faster, unless the CZ-858 is using non-corrosive, in which case it wins.
I saw some discussion about terminal effects. That's really not my department. But keep in mind all us civvies can get is ball and FMJ ammo in both calibers anyways, for the most part, except for hunting ammo.
CZ-858 is easy to transition to. Great iron sights, like the SKS/AK sites, but more refined somehow, with a clear and fast picture. Mine came sighted in perfectly. Low recoil in the 18.5" inch model. Great balance (except for the long barrel), I love the way it fits people with regular to small frames. A dream to strip and clean, no complicated little pieces, doesn't crap where it eats.
But here's the bad part. First, I had the CZ-858 'Gremlin.' The distributor was very good and fixed it, but it was aggravating going to the range and experiencing those problems until it was finally fixed. I'm still not sure about the rifle's reliability. People with the milspec VZ-58 models seem to have better success. I've handled those carbines, and they are nice.
Second problem is the lack of non-corrosive 7.62X39. With clean ammo, cleaning is a synch, doesn't even really need to be cleaned all that often I bet. But with corrosive ammo, especially that Czech and Hungarian stuff, you need to clean whether you've shot 1 or 100 rounds. It took me 4 hours of cleaning my 858 yesterday, before I was satisfied. GET A CHROME BORE!
As for the AR, great accessories are available. I put a EOTech on mine, with no prior experience, in about 20 minutes, had it zeroed well before the end of the range session. Try that with a CZ-858. Putting quality optics on an AR is like LEGO. Same for other accessories. VZ-58 is more limited, though you can still get some good accessories for it if you look.
AR is more accurate, no contest. The VZ-58s seem to shoot between about 2-4 MOA with factory ammo (better than most 7.62X39 semi-autos), ARs can shoot well under 2MOA, depending on modifications and ammo.
I have to admit I hate the 'fit' of the stock AR. That grip is like a Glock, and the tube stock was not made for civilian shooters. But its easier to fit an AR to your body with mods than it is to fix a VZ-58 ergonomics. Controls are easier to reach and faster on an AR, though I find the VZ-58 design more comfortable overall.
The best part about the AR-15 is that it can legally use those 10-round LAR-15 magazines. That, and mag changes are way faster with an AR than a VZ-58 (though the stripper clips on a VZ would be almost as good if it was allowed to use 10-round magazines.)
FWIW, we found that the perceived recoil of a stock M4 configuration AR-15 is worse than a stock CZ-858, but it's probably different with the midlength and full-length AR-15.
In short, if you are looking for a rifle that can put a lot of rounds downrange fast, with compatibility for all the best optics, maximum customizability, and a lot of possibilities for overall length, get the AR.
If you want a blaster that you can take anywhere, get the CZ-858 or the new chrome barrel non-restricted model. The restricted model still has advantages as the VZ-58 series will fire all that cheap surplus that is half the cost of most AR-15 ammo. And the rifle costs half of a new AR-15.
AR-15s are more versatile because of their modularity, but are restricted and expensive. The quality of construction is higher, but it depends on how much you need. The military VZ-58 is pretty well built, but now you're talking about a restricted model. I enjoy firing my CZ-858 more than my AR, because I don't have to think about the cost of each bullet, and I can buy ammo in 1120 round cases for next to nothing. This allows you to experiment with improving your technique at the range at less cost than with an AR.
VZ-58 is fun. I don't know about practical uses, though I think I saw a video on CGN a while back of someone shooting a predator with a CZ-858, putting it down and avoiding potential harm to humans. Funny thing is that both are a real pain to clean, the AR because you've got to clean every nook and cranny if you want to feel safe that the rifle is going to be reliable, and the CZ-858 because of the corrosive ammo. You'll still clean the AR faster, unless the CZ-858 is using non-corrosive, in which case it wins.
I saw some discussion about terminal effects. That's really not my department. But keep in mind all us civvies can get is ball and FMJ ammo in both calibers anyways, for the most part, except for hunting ammo.
I stopped using my VZ58 for any time of match.. Its a range plinker...
The safety on it is messed up, so when I use my service rifle I get messed up..IE Safe on a VZ is Fire on a AR and Fire on a VZ is where Safe is on a AR... So I don't like that...
Also since that its not like a AR15 where you just gotta flick it down, to fire..
I don't like the fact that the cocking handle is on the right side and have to reach over the gun to #### it w/o taking my right hand off the pistol grip.
Another thing, I was trained not to do is to take my right hand off the pistol grip...
Another thing I do not like, Is my muscle memory goes out to lunch being I have to rock the mags in... Its not as fast as a AR15.
I still prefer my AR15, My VZ is used as a plinker and thats it...
The safety on it is messed up, so when I use my service rifle I get messed up..IE Safe on a VZ is Fire on a AR and Fire on a VZ is where Safe is on a AR... So I don't like that...
Also since that its not like a AR15 where you just gotta flick it down, to fire..
I don't like the fact that the cocking handle is on the right side and have to reach over the gun to #### it w/o taking my right hand off the pistol grip.
Another thing, I was trained not to do is to take my right hand off the pistol grip...
Another thing I do not like, Is my muscle memory goes out to lunch being I have to rock the mags in... Its not as fast as a AR15.
I still prefer my AR15, My VZ is used as a plinker and thats it...
Rob,
I don't want to piss in anyone's cornflakes but the AK(rock and lock) system can be operated just as fast as an AR platform. Training and practice make the difference. Like you said, you're trained on the AR platform and therefore not as fluent with other platforms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz5LPaMhlOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgH6tHgyvY
TDC
I don't want to piss in anyone's cornflakes but the AK(rock and lock) system can be operated just as fast as an AR platform. Training and practice make the difference. Like you said, you're trained on the AR platform and therefore not as fluent with other platforms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz5LPaMhlOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgH6tHgyvY
TDC
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Why the cr!st can't one of our retailers get in bulk non-corrosive 7.62x39? Is it because of the war in Iraq? I know we used to get in non-corrosive chinese stuff...what gives? Why can't we get wolf ammo in Canada?
Its just not the rock and lock mags, Its the position of the selector switch and the side of the cocking handle... It was slowing me down the most, I used it at a 3 gun match and about 2-3 times I was wondering why the gun would not fire. Also I was talking to a CGN member that sold his VZ because he was messing up at work with his C7. IE placing it on safe and not fire ETC
I hear you there. No need to induce errors in your training for the benefit of cheap pleasure shooting.
TDC
