black box customs undeclared shady business policy

[Botts]

This. Too many clowns think that PAL number is some kind of Top Secret document.

PALs are PII, and if you're collecting PII as a business, for the love of god, put a Privacy Policy on your website.

First, both service providers of BBC's website (Squarespace & Shopify) require a public Privacy Policy as a condition of using their service. Second, in Ontario, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act requires it as a matter of law.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, you let your customer's know how you're using their information, how long you're keeping it for, and how it will be safeguarded. I.e., if your using my PAL for purchase verification, you should be able to tell me you're destroying that information as soon as payment clears.

Also, BBC needs to be careful with Shopify, since they're definitely in breach of the shopify acceptable use policy since they're selling "certain parts" including flash suppressors, and threaded barrels for semi-automatic firearms and "certain firearms" which includes anything semi-auto with a threaded barrel.

Hence I said, wait before commenting and egging BBC as every story usually have two sides. Let BBC respond

At minimum, BBC should respond with an adequate Privacy Policy.

 

[combatshotgun]

The shady part is not putting it on your website under the disclaimer section thereby wasting peoples time. you're free to have whatever policy you lkike but you should post it somewhere, not take money than ask after the fact.

 

[Wormald1995]

I will not show my firearms license unless I am purchasing ammunition or a firearm. Simple as that, if that is their policy I'd take my business elsewhere, lots of dealers happy to take my money without any extra hassle.

 

[hunterhenderson]

I called and said I want to cancel the order because of the email i received, they said "so you don't want to provide your pal?" I said no cancel it and they said ok.

I certainly wouldnt call it shady , I might call that just plain stupid on their part......you bet

 

[kevino86]

This. Too many clowns think that PAL number is some kind of Top Secret document. It's a way to ensure #1 that your customer is legit and #2 prevent you from being held liable in the case they are building ghost guns, or whatever else. We all know at this point the government bends and changes laws when they feel like to suit their needs.

Black box is one of the very few gun companies in Canada that I can say without a shadow of doubt, I whole heartedly trust, both in service and craftsmanship. Get real OP.

Double this.

I'm a long-time customer of blackbox customs and have had nothing but positive experiences with the company. The staff are always friendly and professional and their work is quality and done in a timely manner.

 

[Mr.awsome]

Black box is a great company and would never hesitate to use them!!

 

[Black Box Customs]

It’s unfortunate that some members of our own Canadian firearms community are prepared to turn their backs and throw a long time, local firearms business under the bus without first having any proper context or background from the business itself. A few members of that community have even gone so far as to accuse us of not supporting the firearms community, which is, with respect, ridiculous. Our company has taken the risk of expanding our business to further grow our operation during some of the most difficult times to be in this industry, all with the goal of offering more and better products and services with faster delivery times. Moreover, we have always put quality and customer service ahead of everything else since we started our business some 8 years ago. When there are already continuous and persistent attacks on the Canadian firearms industry from an uninformed government, it is unfortunate when we see examples of the same sort of approach from some of our consumers; perhaps this is why our community can appear to be so disjointed and oftentimes focused on the wrong area.

In any event, we would like to directly address and respond to some negative online chatter that has arisen today.


Although it is true that there are no laws in Canada requiring a PAL for parts purchases, over the last 6 months we have had an overwhelming amount of ill-intentioned people purchasing specific parts that are quite obviously being used to complete 3D printed firearms. We turn away almost $10,000-15,000/month in potential fraudulent webstore and showroom purchases, hence we have established a one time PAL request now to legitimize an account and to ensure the purchases are genuine. The amount of time we've been devoting to addressing fraudulent purchases and the investigations launched by law enforcement that follow them over what is usually a $20 part has gotten out of hand and is starting to hinder our ability to properly serve our customers.

Due to our client base (LE/MIL and Licensed PAL holders) and the overhead of investigation costs we've incurred over the last 6 months, we have implemented a store policy whereby we do our due diligence and reduce as much fraudulent and illegal orders as possible. We are a specialized shop and only care to service PAL holding customers when they are purchasing firearm parts. Our industry is already under an immense level of government and public scrutiny; we have no interest in supporting the criminal element who create a larger negative spotlight on law abiding gun owners.

This policy is still new to us and is evolving; we do appreciate and indeed encourage constructive feedback from our customers, and moving forward we will produce a clearly worded policy update on our website. To those of you who disagree with this approach, we apologize. However, like it or not, as a responsible nationally recognized firearms business, we must take precautions which in the end will serve to strengthen our community by demonstrating a professional approach to the sales of firearms and their parts.

 

[Black Box Customs]

PALs are PII, and if you're collecting PII as a business, for the love of god, put a Privacy Policy on your website.

First, both service providers of BBC's website (Squarespace & Shopify) require a public Privacy Policy as a condition of using their service. Second, in Ontario, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act requires it as a matter of law.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, you let your customer's know how you're using their information, how long you're keeping it for, and how it will be safeguarded. I.e., if your using my PAL for purchase verification, you should be able to tell me you're destroying that information as soon as payment clears.

Also, BBC needs to be careful with Shopify, since they're definitely in breach of the shopify acceptable use policy since they're selling "certain parts" including flash suppressors, and threaded barrels for semi-automatic firearms and "certain firearms" which includes anything semi-auto with a threaded barrel.


At minimum, BBC should respond with an adequate Privacy Policy.

These are all very reasonable points and some that we have already addressed in the past, however for the ones that haven't we will be address them this week. Thank you for your constructive criticism.

 

[Black Box Customs]

Black box is a great company and would never hesitate to use them!!

We also want to thank everyone that understands where we're coming from and giving us the benefit of the doubt. We know this policy is a unpopular one, however we will continue to do our best to support the Canadian firearms community and we look forward to working with you in the future.

 

[Poffels]

It’s unfortunate that some members of our own Canadian firearms community are prepared to turn their backs and throw a long time, local firearms business under the bus without first having any proper context or background from the business itself. A few members of that community have even gone so far as to accuse us of not supporting the firearms community, which is, with respect, ridiculous. Our company has taken the risk of expanding our business to further grow our operation during some of the most difficult times to be in this industry, all with the goal of offering more and better products and services with faster delivery times. Moreover, we have always put quality and customer service ahead of everything else since we started our business some 8 years ago. When there are already continuous and persistent attacks on the Canadian firearms industry from an uninformed government, it is unfortunate when we see examples of the same sort of approach from some of our consumers; perhaps this is why our community can appear to be so disjointed and oftentimes focused on the wrong area.

In any event, we would like to directly address and respond to some negative online chatter that has arisen today.


Although it is true that there are no laws in Canada requiring a PAL for parts purchases, over the last 6 months we have had an overwhelming amount of ill-intentioned people purchasing specific parts that are quite obviously being used to complete 3D printed firearms. We turn away almost $10,000-15,000/month in potential fraudulent webstore and showroom purchases, hence we have established a one time PAL request now to legitimize an account and to ensure the purchases are genuine. The amount of time we've been devoting to addressing fraudulent purchases and the investigations launched by law enforcement that follow them over what is usually a $20 part has gotten out of hand and is starting to hinder our ability to properly serve our customers.

Due to our client base (LE/MIL and Licensed PAL holders) and the overhead of investigation costs we've incurred over the last 6 months, we have implemented a store policy whereby we do our due diligence and reduce as much fraudulent and illegal orders as possible. We are a specialized shop and only care to service PAL holding customers when they are purchasing firearm parts. Our industry is already under an immense level of government and public scrutiny; we have no interest in supporting the criminal element who create a larger negative spotlight on law abiding gun owners.

This policy is still new to us and is evolving; we do appreciate and indeed encourage constructive feedback from our customers, and moving forward we will produce a clearly worded policy update on our website. To those of you who disagree with this approach, we apologize. However, like it or not, as a responsible nationally recognized firearms business, we must take precautions which in the end will serve to strengthen our community by demonstrating a professional approach to the sales of firearms and their parts.

This forum NEEDS a LIKE button!

 

[rubberdonuts]

While I used to agree with the OP. Times have changed. If you didn’t read CSSA’s March 29th issue it laid out the situation at hand. March had 14 Murders/Attempted Murders with Firearms and No Suspects in 12/14 of those cases across this great nation. I hate this situation we’re in boys and girls but this problem isn’t going away.
Just the other night here in London,ON two 20yr old females were caught on video taking shots at another car on a major road at 6:50am. We got problems.

True North Arms required a Pal for me to buy magazines once. Instead of calling and complaining I added ammo to my order and went about my life. Was this the right move? Probably not. Did I get what I wanted and more? Yes I did.

Blackbox is the only outfit in the nation that does what they do. If you don’t get it, don’t waste anymore of your time and shop elsewhere.

Do you boo.

 

[Tbraz11]

Interesting read for sure, Unfortunate that you had to provide your PAL to buy your gun parts. dealt with Black Box a few time and have had nothing but good experiences with them. Customer service is amazing and level of knowledge is pretty amazing too.
I honestly don’t see the issue with asking for my PAL buying gun parts from a gun store, it’s like going to the hospital without your health card. “No I don’t have it but will you take my word I actually am covered and from this province/country”

Keep doing what your doing Black Box, your LE/Military community especially thanks you.

 

[Black Box Customs]

While I used to agree with the OP. Times have changed. If you didn’t read CSSA’s March 29th issue it laid out the situation at hand. March had 14 Murders/Attempted Murders with Firearms and No Suspects in 12/14 of those cases across this great nation. I hate this situation we’re in boys and girls but this problem isn’t going away.
Just the other night here in London,ON two 20yr old females were caught on video taking shots at another car on a major road at 6:50am. We got problems.

True North Arms required a Pal for me to buy magazines once. Instead of calling and complaining I added ammo to my order and went about my life. Was this the right move? Probably not. Did I get what I wanted and more? Yes I did.

Blackbox is the only outfit in the nation that does what they do. If you don’t get it, don’t waste anymore of your time and shop elsewhere.

Do you boo.

100% to further this point, we have had 4 attempted break-ins over the past 6 years. All 4 times were futile and did not make it past the front door and were not able to get any firearms, regardless each time we have increased our security measures at our expense. In fact one just happened yesterday morning, the damage wasn't worth going through insurance, it's unfortunate that it's just the cost of doing business for us now. Criminals aren't shy about trying to get their hands on firearms any more and will do it by any means necessary.

 

[pac_man]

Blackbox does great quality work and has exceptional customer service. I’ve bought from them a number of times and they do what they say they will. Customer service seems to be rare in the gun industry. I would recommended them to anyone. Even if they want your PAL to buy gun parts. Its worth it to deal with them and not some fudds who don’t care about you.

 

[JaysonCraig]

This thread, if anything, makes me WANT to give them my business.

 

[Botts]

These are all very reasonable points and some that we have already addressed in the past, however for the ones that haven't we will be address them this week. Thank you for your constructive criticism.

Thanks! That should help with compliance, and assuage some of the concerns here. It's definitely thrown me off when I've been asked to provide a PAL for ancillary purchases in the past, and though I don't mind providing it, having a published privacy policy goes a long way towards adding comfort.

I'm not sure why I brought up the Ontario legislation, I know you guys are from Alberta! In Alberta, it is PIPA (the Personal Information Protection Act) that establishes the privacy requirements that would apply to BBC.

Creating a privacy policy also serves as a good time to ask whether we really want all the information we retain. It also often helps us catch some of the things that can throw us out of PCI-DSS compliance as well.

And considering privacy policies lets us ponder challenging things, like where to balance privacy vs convenience. As much as we like having stores keep our purchase records on hand for warranty purposes or frequent customer programs, there's likely a huge number of legitimate customers who would rather their purchase history have been purged prior to the announcement of certain government orders.

For what it's worth, as a data hoarder at heart, it's hard to get in the habit of hitting delete on things, but when I consider the risks of data breaches and other disclosure issues, that fuzzy feeling of knowing I have "that" saved just doesn't seem worth it.

 

[9-ball]

I like how when buying booze and your asked for your drivers license it's no problem, buying an uncontrolled gun part or reloading components and your asked for your PAL its the end of the world.

Take your business elsewhere if you want, I will continue to use blackbox. Great guys and fantastic work.

 

[Botts]

I like how when buying booze and your asked for your drivers license it's no problem, buying an uncontrolled gun part or reloading components and your asked for your PAL its the end of the world.

Take your business elsewhere if you want, I will continue to use blackbox. Great guys and fantastic work.

Blackbox is great! And I think they answered the question exactly how it needed to be, they committed to improving communication and posting a privacy policy.

But I take a slight issue with your analogy, if I show my ID buying something in person, there's no risk of a copy of it being retained in an inbox on a potentially unencrypted PC that gets stolen in a break-in. I'm not at all saying Black Box is doing this, but it's something to be aware of when emailing copies of ID versus showing them in person.

 

[Yuu]

It’s unfortunate that some members of our own Canadian firearms community are prepared to turn their backs and throw a long time, local firearms business under the bus without first having any proper context or background from the business itself. A few members of that community have even gone so far as to accuse us of not supporting the firearms community, which is, with respect, ridiculous. Our company has taken the risk of expanding our business to further grow our operation during some of the most difficult times to be in this industry, all with the goal of offering more and better products and services with faster delivery times. Moreover, we have always put quality and customer service ahead of everything else since we started our business some 8 years ago. When there are already continuous and persistent attacks on the Canadian firearms industry from an uninformed government, it is unfortunate when we see examples of the same sort of approach from some of our consumers; perhaps this is why our community can appear to be so disjointed and oftentimes focused on the wrong area.

In any event, we would like to directly address and respond to some negative online chatter that has arisen today.


Although it is true that there are no laws in Canada requiring a PAL for parts purchases, over the last 6 months we have had an overwhelming amount of ill-intentioned people purchasing specific parts that are quite obviously being used to complete 3D printed firearms. We turn away almost $10,000-15,000/month in potential fraudulent webstore and showroom purchases, hence we have established a one time PAL request now to legitimize an account and to ensure the purchases are genuine. The amount of time we've been devoting to addressing fraudulent purchases and the investigations launched by law enforcement that follow them over what is usually a $20 part has gotten out of hand and is starting to hinder our ability to properly serve our customers.

Due to our client base (LE/MIL and Licensed PAL holders) and the overhead of investigation costs we've incurred over the last 6 months, we have implemented a store policy whereby we do our due diligence and reduce as much fraudulent and illegal orders as possible. We are a specialized shop and only care to service PAL holding customers when they are purchasing firearm parts. Our industry is already under an immense level of government and public scrutiny; we have no interest in supporting the criminal element who create a larger negative spotlight on law abiding gun owners.

This policy is still new to us and is evolving; we do appreciate and indeed encourage constructive feedback from our customers, and moving forward we will produce a clearly worded policy update on our website. To those of you who disagree with this approach, we apologize. However, like it or not, as a responsible nationally recognized firearms business, we must take precautions which in the end will serve to strengthen our community by demonstrating a professional approach to the sales of firearms and their parts.

I don't reply much on the forum but recently I have done business with them on my SFP9. Whether you dislike or like the policy, it reasonable to protect themself and the community as whole as precaution; it not permanent.

 

[Dobs]

Giving freedom in small bits every day for false feeling of security. Sorry I'm not part of this.

BBC removed from my list of vendors.