black box customs undeclared shady business policy

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Black Box Customs said:
It’s unfortunate that some members of our own Canadian firearms community are prepared to turn their backs and throw a long time, local firearms business under the bus without first having any proper context or background from the business itself. A few members of that community have even gone so far as to accuse us of not supporting the firearms community, which is, with respect, ridiculous. Our company has taken the risk of expanding our business to further grow our operation during some of the most difficult times to be in this industry, all with the goal of offering more and better products and services with faster delivery times. Moreover, we have always put quality and customer service ahead of everything else since we started our business some 8 years ago. When there are already continuous and persistent attacks on the Canadian firearms industry from an uninformed government, it is unfortunate when we see examples of the same sort of approach from some of our consumers; perhaps this is why our community can appear to be so disjointed and oftentimes focused on the wrong area.

In any event, we would like to directly address and respond to some negative online chatter that has arisen today.


Although it is true that there are no laws in Canada requiring a PAL for parts purchases, over the last 6 months we have had an overwhelming amount of ill-intentioned people purchasing specific parts that are quite obviously being used to complete 3D printed firearms. We turn away almost $10,000-15,000/month in potential fraudulent webstore and showroom purchases, hence we have established a one time PAL request now to legitimize an account and to ensure the purchases are genuine. The amount of time we've been devoting to addressing fraudulent purchases and the investigations launched by law enforcement that follow them over what is usually a $20 part has gotten out of hand and is starting to hinder our ability to properly serve our customers.

Due to our client base (LE/MIL and Licensed PAL holders) and the overhead of investigation costs we've incurred over the last 6 months, we have implemented a store policy whereby we do our due diligence and reduce as much fraudulent and illegal orders as possible. We are a specialized shop and only care to service PAL holding customers when they are purchasing firearm parts. Our industry is already under an immense level of government and public scrutiny; we have no interest in supporting the criminal element who create a larger negative spotlight on law abiding gun owners.

This policy is still new to us and is evolving; we do appreciate and indeed encourage constructive feedback from our customers, and moving forward we will produce a clearly worded policy update on our website. To those of you who disagree with this approach, we apologize. However, like it or not, as a responsible nationally recognized firearms business, we must take precautions which in the end will serve to strengthen our community by demonstrating a professional approach to the sales of firearms and their parts.
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Thanks for the explanation. I hope this was offered as an explanation to the OP when he first called the store.
 
First: Blackbox is phenomenal from a qc and cs stand point

Second: If the PAL verification has everyone up in arms and its purpose is to verify purchasers to reduce fraudulent activity- there has to be another way to verify. What are all the nonbfirearms business doing???

There was mention of the sale of parts that may or may not be use to complete "things" - I'm just not sure that is the retailers job/responsibility nor what a pal check prove?
 
So while you "demonize" BBC, what's the alternative if they do "nothing"? and condone the fraud etc? Where do they end up as a business?
Having dealt with them on several occasions, I have no concerns about there attitude to there customers security and privacy, and while I don't run a business, I'm guessing they implemented a solution that both fit there business model and the costs associated with it.
 
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Black Box Customs said:
It’s unfortunate that some members of our own Canadian firearms community are prepared to turn their backs and throw a long time, local firearms business under the bus without first having any proper context or background from the business itself. A few members of that community have even gone so far as to accuse us of not supporting the firearms community, which is, with respect, ridiculous. Our company has taken the risk of expanding our business to further grow our operation during some of the most difficult times to be in this industry, all with the goal of offering more and better products and services with faster delivery times. Moreover, we have always put quality and customer service ahead of everything else since we started our business some 8 years ago. When there are already continuous and persistent attacks on the Canadian firearms industry from an uninformed government, it is unfortunate when we see examples of the same sort of approach from some of our consumers; perhaps this is why our community can appear to be so disjointed and oftentimes focused on the wrong area.

In any event, we would like to directly address and respond to some negative online chatter that has arisen today.


Although it is true that there are no laws in Canada requiring a PAL for parts purchases, over the last 6 months we have had an overwhelming amount of ill-intentioned people purchasing specific parts that are quite obviously being used to complete 3D printed firearms. We turn away almost $10,000-15,000/month in potential fraudulent webstore and showroom purchases, hence we have established a one time PAL request now to legitimize an account and to ensure the purchases are genuine. The amount of time we've been devoting to addressing fraudulent purchases and the investigations launched by law enforcement that follow them over what is usually a $20 part has gotten out of hand and is starting to hinder our ability to properly serve our customers.

Due to our client base (LE/MIL and Licensed PAL holders) and the overhead of investigation costs we've incurred over the last 6 months, we have implemented a store policy whereby we do our due diligence and reduce as much fraudulent and illegal orders as possible. We are a specialized shop and only care to service PAL holding customers when they are purchasing firearm parts. Our industry is already under an immense level of government and public scrutiny; we have no interest in supporting the criminal element who create a larger negative spotlight on law abiding gun owners.

This policy is still new to us and is evolving; we do appreciate and indeed encourage constructive feedback from our customers, and moving forward we will produce a clearly worded policy update on our website. To those of you who disagree with this approach, we apologize. However, like it or not, as a responsible nationally recognized firearms business, we must take precautions which in the end will serve to strengthen our community by demonstrating a professional approach to the sales of firearms and their parts.
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Thank you for the professional and the due diligence. Just like in any community, there are always people that embrace the cancel culture and quickly burn you at stake every time you disagree with their view. Where is the culture that rather discuss things first and find one common ground? I am worried that they are lost or in the brink of extinction. I believes the "convenience" culture and social medias corrupted the society and play part in the cancel culture development. Sorry to digress.

I can understand what you are doing. You are playing your part in keeping community safe by doing extra due diligence to ensure that people who buy firearms parts are actually law abiding gun owners. I can understand this piece and I think it is great that you are doing that.

The challenge here is to satisfy group of people that follow the law to the T and not more than the law required VS your policy to ensure bad people don't get a hold of gun parts. I think both are sides are great and no one is wrong.

I guess at the end of day your company needs to decide either only sell firearms parts for people who is customizing their firearms using your service OR still continue sell firearms parts to public even though they are not using your custom service and just ignore or accept the "lashing" from people that disagree with your policy. I know there are pros and cons for either of the choice.

I used your custom service already so you already have my PAL, and I hope in the future I don't need to keep providing it to you if I just want to buy parts as you should already have it.
 
Botts said:
But I take a slight issue with your analogy, if I show my ID buying something in person, there's no risk of a copy of it being retained in an inbox on a potentially unencrypted PC that gets stolen in a break-in. I'm not at all saying Black Box is doing this, but it's something to be aware of when emailing copies of ID versus showing them in person.
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Yep, apples and oranges. Showing your ID to a clerk to verify that it is really you is one thing. Sending a copy of your ID/PAL/etc. to a business where you have no control over who can access it, how long they keep it or how it is stored is a completely different ball game.
 
9-ball said:
I like how when buying booze and your asked for your drivers license it's no problem, buying an uncontrolled gun part or reloading components and your asked for your PAL its the end of the world.
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I like how you used the word that explains it, and still didn’t get it..

Are you all excited for your new World Ecconomic Forum issued digital ID’s when your bank forces you to accept them? But hey, it’ll be just like buying alcohol, except everywhere for everything. Right..
 
mildot said:
So while you "demonize" BBC, what's the alternative if they do "nothing"? and condone the fraud etc? Where do they end up as a business?
Having dealt with them on several occasions, I have no concerns about there attitude to there customers security and privacy, and while I don't run a business, I'm guessing they implemented a solution that both fit there business model and the costs associated with it.
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every business has to deal with fraud and theft. I've worked retail, I've been a retail purchase and marketting agent for a large company that experienced credit card fraud and other forms of theft on a regular an continuing basis. I get that businesses are looking for ways to protect themselves from the potential liability that can come from theft and fraud as well. Let's face it, every business is seeing a rise in theft , fraud and scams.... firearms businesses aren't special in this regard.
Here's the thing though..... when it comes to unregulated gun parts specifically..... I can walk in to Cabelas and buy firearm related items without showing my private information and I can do the same at the 3 local small small time shops within an hour of me. I would only be asked for the "very private" information that is my PAL/RPAL and or drivers license if I was purchasing regulated items like a firearm, gun powder, primers and ammunition because the law "demands" it.

In this case the "law" is demanding nothing from individuals purchasing unregulated parts. It is the "fear of liability" the brings a retailer to make the choice of installing a privacy robbing hurdle as a gateway to do business. It is unfortunate to see businesses making these choices when there is no "demand in law" to support it.
Now "pressure" from law enforcement could certainly be causing a business to make these decisions that aren;t based on law..... we saw that when pressure was put on businesses that sold perfectly legal paperweights we used to call 80% receivers. Again, there was no "written law" demanding retailers to cease selling those items..... it was "pressure" from those who grant the yearly business license.
I have no bones against this retailer but I do have a choice to support businesses who do not bow to the pressure and those who do not request my private documents as a gateway to unregulated parts.
What this business is doing is setting a precedent for those who do make the laws and they will point to actions like this and say "look, retailers support this so lets make it a law to require a firearms license to purchase "anything" firearm related.
This is not cancel culture, we all have a choice to shop where policies are favorable and to support those who do not bow to the pressure from the antigun folks.
As far as criminals accessing firearm parts...... criminals do what they do an that's a job for law enforcement and the courts.
Should we make licenses up for all the other things criminals use as weapons like knives and bats and all the other instruments that criminals use? The slippery slope indeed.
Law enforcement and the courts are failing our society and it shouldn't be up to a retailer to add a stop gap because our country is rife with criminality.
 
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Parts are uncontrolled so you can always purchase them wholesale and sell them yourself without checking pals unnecessarily... probably charge a premium too.

I wasnt happy about this policy initially but CBSA farts around with my gun part imports so I need to use BBC now and then. Even got a "let us know when you get your PAL" response when I voiced my objection. A few companies are doing this, if they get hacked I guess Ill need to do the ID cancel scramble once again haha. I just deal with it. BBc are good guys
 
The title to this post is inflammatory, I'm surprised it was allowed. You remind me of news websites that title their articles in the most sensational way to draw people to click and read.

Was what they did okay? Maybe not. But it's far from shady. You could have chosen a better title.
 
Would Black box send me a copy of their manufacturing license, their journeyman millwright certificates and their business license if I was trying to purchase a magwell? They are not required by law and should not be requested. It is completely legal for someone without a PAL to purchase the part and should not be requested.
 
What is the process for showing BlackBox our PAL electronically?

Obviously email is out because it is laughably insecure and prone to breaches. Email is also very difficult to manage/report on/purge emails with private customer information. An "in-box" with my name, DOB, PAL #, PAL expiry, home address and photo managed by the equivalent of a GeekSquad isn't really comforting.

Could you please let us know your process for electronic verification of a PAL, while keeping our data safe?
 
I think some people missed one point they listed in their explanation. They are trying to stop people from buying uncontrolled parts that would allow criminals to complete firearms. They are trying to help ensure that we can maintain this hobby for as long as possible. More shootings happen every week and that doesn’t bode well for us as a community. Since every government up to this point has decided the best way to stop unlawful firearm use is by writing asinine laws that only impact their lawful use.
 
What to you guys think a PAL is for ? Keeping it in your wallet ?
Firearms Business have all the right in the world to demand a copy of it.
A PAL is not an ID unless a dealer access the RCMP database. On top of it, you are buying online, the business will need your name-addess and - oh my god - your credit card number along with safety code. They also now- with all those frauds - ask for a valid ID.

If you do not like the process- stay out of online purchase.
 
‘Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.’ Benjamin Franklin

Your privacy rights don’t end just because some criminals are doing criminal things and the RCMP are too lazy to do their jobs effectively.
 
I for one have been extremely satisfied with my dealings with Black Box Customs. Our hobby is under attack from all angles and if I need to provide my PAL in order to help reduce the use of parts in building illegal firearms I see no issue in that. I would imagine that one single 'ghost gun' will do more harm to our community than asking for a PAL will ever do. Our freedom is certainly under attack, so the less ammunition we give the public to attack us all the better. There was a recent news story of a airsoft glock lower being modified to accept an actual slide assembly that was tested and proved to fire live ammunition. These are issues that will drive the public to demand even more repressive gun laws, these are the issues we should all be taking a stand to prevent. We need to do a better job at policing ourselves, or the politicians will continue to overreach and do that for us.

Thank you Black Box Customs for all that you do.
 
Showing valid ID is fine, but recording of such ID is not ok. In this modern day, privacy is paramount, and we are slowly loosing it all (Vax pass anyone?).
Say goodbye to "unregulated" anything from now on, and this has nothing to do with legality/safety but eventual total disarmament and control.
 
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