Black Box Customs
Regular
- Location
- Calgary Alberta
Although it may look similar on the surface to some, for us it's the difference between discretion vs no discretion.
black box customs undeclared shady business policy
- Thread starter combatshotgun
- Start date
- Status
Although it may look similar on the surface to some, for us it's the difference between discretion vs no discretion.
I will just leave this here:
https://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=P06P5.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779814381
I also request that you produce the below as required by Alberta law.
https://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=P06P5.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779814381
You also might want to read the law in, Alberta you are liable for an offence of $10,000, for every instance of requiring people to provide information you are not entitled to collect.
Shawn
https://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=P06P5.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779814381
I also request that you produce the below as required by Alberta law.
https://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=P06P5.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779814381
You also might want to read the law in, Alberta you are liable for an offence of $10,000, for every instance of requiring people to provide information you are not entitled to collect.
Shawn
I like to think I've spent quite a bit on guns and gun accessories over the years, but one of the instant turn offs business wise, is overreaching - asking for a license when the item doesn't require it. If I were to use this business for a purchase and was hounded for a firearms license when it wasn't required, I'd simply just go to the next website and place my order. Food for thought.
And I'm interested to see the response to Shawn's message above.
And I'm interested to see the response to Shawn's message above.
Sea Monkey
Regular
- Location
- South Coast of Upper Canukistan
Agreed. My BS alert spiked as well, over the grammar and punctuation errors in their email.
Yep,
Thats how we learn which companies illegally start and keep a registry of firearms licenses, for non regulated parts. And which companies will most likely aid the government is collecting guns
Shawn
Well maybe BBC will need to stop selling parts to people who don’t use their custom service. When you use their custom service for your guns PAL is required to ensure you are the owner of the legally obtained guns. This way BBC will feel more comfortable and don’t need to deal with this issue. But on the other hand, they will lose some of sales from people who are just interested to buy parts but not getting custom service.
It is a decision that they have to make.
It is a decision that they have to make.
wolf300H&H
CGN Regular
- Location
- Cabin in central Alberta
Hhh
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Totally agree with Shawn
Thank you Shawn for bringing this act up. It was a good read and a good reference point to further the discussion of this topic.
With no disrespect to you, I believe your post is missing a few key points and is misleading.
Your reference to:
"(2) An organization shall not, as a condition of supplying a product
or service, require an individual to consent to the collection, use or
disclosure of personal information about an individual beyond what
is necessary to provide the product or service."
I am assuming you pulled this form Section 6, division 2, or page 12 on the PDF (as you have not referenced the section). This section talks about the businesses asking for consent of their customers. When the act references beyond what is necessary, it means in terms of consent, rather it being a condition for selling you their product or service. In general, a business cannot collect private information with the consumer’s consent. Consumers typically agree to this online when consumers hit the “I accept the terms and conditions” while making a purchase. An example in this context would be, BBC cannot ask for your consent in disclosing information by race or income level (since it is not necessary information to provide their product) in their terms and conditions. While BBC doesn't specifically ask for said information, you’ve given your permission for BBC to legally collect it from you if you hit I accept, in this example that would breach the act.
Furthermore, the key area your post does not address, which is the most relevant fact to the topic of discussion, the key word: “Reasonable.”
Your reference to (found in section 6 or page 12 of the PDF to your link):
“ Policies and practices
6(1) An organization must develop and follow policies and
practices that are reasonable for the organization to meet its
obligations under this Act.”
The word “Reasonable” is defined for us in the Alberta Personal Information Protection Act under Section 2 (or page 7 on your PDF link) it is quoted as below:
“Standard as to what is reasonable
2 Where in this Act anything or any matter
(a) is described, characterized or referred to as reasonable or unreasonable, or
(b) is required or directed to be carried out or otherwise dealt with reasonably or in a reasonable manner,
the standard to be applied under this Act in determining whether the thing or matter is reasonable or unreasonable, or has been carried out or otherwise dealt with reasonably or in a reasonable manner, is what a reasonable person would consider appropriate in the circumstances. “
In BBC’s circumstances, the lawful answer seems to be an open ended one or a gray area. This is done on purpose with many acts which allow flexibility for situations such as this one. Clearly within the post itself there is more than 1 side of what is reasonable therefore we cannot agree to what is reasonable. Typically gray areas of the law are done by court decision based on precedent of a previous case. If anyone has any legal precedent about this act, I would love to hear about it.
Moreover, your statement on (Section 59 or page 55 of the PDF)
“You also might want to read the law in, Alberta you are liable for an offence of $10,000, for every instance of requiring people to provide information you are not entitled to collect.”
If BBC does not breach this act for the reason I’ve mentioned in the above paragraph, then the fines should not apply.
Lastly, you do bring up a great point on point in your other post on the creation of a private registry that is a non government requirement. The government has historically used overarching means to obtain these registries. If BBC does delete this information, then this point is mute, whether you trust BBC doing that, that’s another debate.
In closing, as I am no lawyer (and you should not take my words for legal advice) BBC should consult their lawyer if they are worried about this. Without taking any sides, to me it seems that the law does allow the collection of this information as it needs to pass the reasonable test. Just like the “reasonably direct route” in our ATT’s, this will have to be a business decision.
If anyone has more (non-inflammatory, please) to add and better our community, I love to hear their thoughts and If I’ve written anything wrong please correct me.
I just got a barrel and action Cerakoted by Blackbox Customs. The work was top notch and I am happy with the experience. All they required from me was a return address for my parts and payment, which I did by etransfer. They are legit and value privacy as much as any of us. Here is a link to the barrel/action they did. The Gunskin was done by me. It is an R15 Merkel 7mm Rem Mag with Vortex scope.
Sorry it is black and white SHALL NOT as a condition of sale make collection of info mandatory.
The section dose not "talk" about asking for consent, it explicitly states a business can not make consent a condition of sale unless they require that info to complete the sale. Which they do not as the parts are unregulated and them wanting to make their own personal firearms license registry is not required to complete a sale of unregulated parts
The issue, other than them collecting information they do not require and are likely not storing or handling legally, is that the above is not the case. At least as per the OP and my personal experience with the company and what they provide you prior to sale.
If you consent, you are correct they can keep what ever they want.
I never claiming their policy was reasonable or not. Only that they provide what their information gathering and handling policy is as required by law.
Never said they were if they don't breach the act. But unfortunately they are
If they sold kitchen knives do you still hold the same position?
Shawn
I’m just going to leave this here. Bought a OZ9 from another dealer which is no longer a dealer of Zev. BBC not only went out of their way to help fix the issues but their customer service was outstanding. Even though they didn’t make a dime on the sale of the products they had no issues spending the time to make things right.
Even got a chance to have dinner with 2 of the principals when they were out in Vancouver for a visit. Outstanding guys, take your tinfoil hats off they aren’t devious people working for the gov’t. They are genuine people in the industry for the love of promoting the sport.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I for one have no issues providing PAL as a form of ID to purchase firearm parts from reputable company like BlackBox Customs. Not sure what the big deal is. Keep up the awesome work BBC, you can’t win them all.
Even got a chance to have dinner with 2 of the principals when they were out in Vancouver for a visit. Outstanding guys, take your tinfoil hats off they aren’t devious people working for the gov’t. They are genuine people in the industry for the love of promoting the sport.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I for one have no issues providing PAL as a form of ID to purchase firearm parts from reputable company like BlackBox Customs. Not sure what the big deal is. Keep up the awesome work BBC, you can’t win them all.
The big deal, is that (as we noticed with another CGN sponsor this week) data breaches happen. All organizations should endeavour to minimize data collection wherever possible.
I actually pick my brick and mortar gun stores based on how simple their receipts are. If the only record is ticker tape from the till without any record of my purchase is the gold standard.
What BBC needs to do, and what they said they would do, is create a Privacy Policy.
They policy needs to specify what data they're keeping, why they're keeping it, and who they're sharing it with and why. Ideally, it'll even specify how long data is retained before destruction.
Many of us don't want to risk a copy of our PALs getting lost in a data breach, our order history becoming public, or perhaps most ominously, a store's invoice history getting nabbed by the RCMP/CFP.
If there is no lawful requirement to keep itemized records of my purchases, I'd rather it not be kept by a gun store. Anyone who bought a 10/22 mag likely wishes they purchased from stores that didn't keep purchase history indefinitely. Law enforcement likes to collect all the data they can get their hands on. Half the time they'll ask for it without warrant or order and just try to guilt stores into providing it. If you have nothing to provide when the government asks you for documents, that's the best case scenario.
The BlackBox boys have always been good to me, my friends and everyone else I have talked too. They've sponsored and competed in numerous events around the Calgary area and especially out in Brooks where my home range is, guaranteed they've done more for growing and supporting the shooting sport community then 95% of the people on this forum.
Do I agree with asking PAL for non registered parts? Nope
Will I keep supporting BlackBox? Yep, because those boys do some damn good work and cancel culture is literal cancer.
For the keyboard warriors in the crowd thinking BBC is running a backdoor registry for the government, you're buying a part for an already registered firearm, and you live in kanuckistan, Big Brother is always watching LOL.
Do I agree with asking PAL for non registered parts? Nope
Will I keep supporting BlackBox? Yep, because those boys do some damn good work and cancel culture is literal cancer.
For the keyboard warriors in the crowd thinking BBC is running a backdoor registry for the government, you're buying a part for an already registered firearm, and you live in kanuckistan, Big Brother is always watching LOL.
This is a perfect example of why we are in the position we are currently in regards to guns
Just look at this thread, how many people are willing to look the other way when someone they like does something bad. Just because you like them or they have done good things in the past does not mean they can not and are not doing something that is wrong.
Shawn
Just look at this thread, how many people are willing to look the other way when someone they like does something bad. Just because you like them or they have done good things in the past does not mean they can not and are not doing something that is wrong.
Shawn
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