black box customs undeclared shady business policy

[Jericho]

I wonder if slamfire is gonna chime in here on this thread, may have missed it in the past 120+ posts.

I support the decision of BBC if it helps keep illegal 3D guns out of the hands of criminals… as they commit crimes which are then used to impugn the legal firearms community. Perhaps this also makes it a little inconvenient for lawful owners, but they ought to have a PAL anyway. There are some vendors where PAL and DOB are entered once and are used for subsequent orders, while I’m not a fan of providing more personal info than necessary, we’re buying from firearms businesses so I’d think it comes with the territory.

I’d also defy anyone to find LE willing to crack down on a vendor for asking for this info contrary to that regulation mentioned in a previous post.


EDIT- just saw in another thread slamfire got pinked

If. I'd like to know exactly how this works and how it's efficacy is measured.

Secondly, it's not with the territory. It isn't a legal requirement and as pointed out by others in this thread, citing law... is a potential violation of existing law.

Thirdly, the police love any organization that tracks and retains data that they can benefit from. This is obvious.

 

[remington jim]

This kind of thing makes me worried for our community if someone who(presumably) has their Pal/Rpal but doesn't know that it is obviously required for non-restricted firearms as well... not only does a store need to check your Pal to be valid when buying a non-restricted firearm, but also an individual in a private sale as the obligation to confirm a valid Pal when selling a non-restricted...

I'm not trying to throw you under the bus Jim and I'm honestly assuming you do know the above but were trying to make the point of actual gun sales vs parts but what you did say was factually incorrect.

The "Plastic Pal Card" in itself does indeed not change someone from Bad to Good, but I would hope we can all agree that by being able to obtain a Pal greatly increases your chances of being a good person... though good is a relative term I suppose, as some of the #### being slung around on this forum is anything but good... we are literally all on the same side but instead of finding some common ground and coming to some understanding we apparently immediately need to point fingers like everyone else does to us...

OMG ! RJ

 

[shawn]

So what is your proposed solution shawn?

Stop illegally collecting personal information. Its not rocket surgery

On one side it appears You want zero collection of data and on the other black box wants to avoid assisting the illegal manufacture of handguns - how do we close the gap?

Stop illegally collecting personal information

They could simply stop selling the products in question and no more pal confirm (but this prevents legitimate buyers will8jg to confirm a pal from having a source)

Yes they could, or they could just stop illegally collecting personal information.

Shawn

 

[shawn]

We are in this position because we are losing the battle over young people, we need to get more youth and young people into shooting. Sorry but talking S*** online at 4 in the morning doesn’t help the cause, you need to get out support and grow the community. I’m 23 and I just recently join my range to help out at matches and get young people involved because if you don’t get them involved shooting sports will die with the old boys. Black box has the same mentally grow the community and get the youth involved with Gucci Glocks lol. Again I don’t support their decision on asking for PALs for not registered parts, but I like the way they get young people involved in the community. They just need guidance in there business practice but not full cancelation.

White knight harder LOL

Go ahead and quote where I suggested they should be cancelled.

Its amazing how so many use the anti gun tactics to defends positions they like, but refuse to see their hypocrisy. Just because they have and do good things dose not mean they dont do and are not doing bad things. Or that they get a pass for the bad things they do.

They have still yet to post their information handling policy, such as who has access, how long the info is stored for, information safety procedures etc etc all of which is required by law if collecting data legally, let alone illegally LOL

Shawn

 

[shawn]

We were defrauded last week over a Kestrel and then attempted fraud over 2 more. The last 2 would not send PAL/driver's licence as it was fraud. confirmed identity-cc theft.

Companies have to protect themselves as fraud is rampart.

We are witness to fraud out of Montreal-international organised crime. We have stopped many attempted frauds.

Regards,

Peter, Hirsch Precision Inc.

LOL

Now we have another company gleefully admitting to illegally collecting PAL information for not even gun parts. This is why people are unhappy.

Shawn

 

[jg007]

LOL

Now we have another company gleefully admitting to illegally collecting PAL information for not even gun parts. This is why people are unhappy.

Shawn

I appreciate your passion and position Shawn
If I'm hearing you correctly... you want them to stop illegally collecting information...thus the solution youd be ok with is for the legal collection of information. Given the few posts citing legalities I'm sure Blackbox is doing just that and I'd guess the storage and retainmnet of said info is more onerous than they were doing

 

[_JR_]

How do other online businesses combat fraud? Never had to supply extra credentials to purchase something before. Only time it was an issue was if package was being shipped to other than my home address.

 

[Jim Guns]

I was told by the RCMP that every purchase is suspect as people have been ordering parts for 'ghost guns' or sending them overseas to places they shouldn't be sent. For small gun businesses they are keeping an eye out as people will do things to make cash when they get desperate and need cash.

 

[shawn]

I appreciate your passion and position Shawn
If I'm hearing you correctly... you want them to stop illegally collecting information...

Correct

Given the few posts citing legalities I'm sure Blackbox is doing just that

Except they are not, in Alberta the law does not allow you to make consenting to the collection of personal information (not just PAL info, any personal information) a condition of sale where that information is not required to complete the purchase.

I'd guess the storage and retainmnet of said info is more onerous than they were doing

Which also makes the collection and retention of that info illegal, if that is the case.

Lets, for a thought experiment, change PAL info for SIN number. Is you position the same?

Shawn

 

[Jericho]

I was told by the RCMP that every purchase is suspect as people have been ordering parts for 'ghost guns' or sending them overseas to places they shouldn't be sent. For small gun businesses they are keeping an eye out as people will do things to make cash when they get desperate and need cash.

Did the RCMP explain straw purchasing too? Their pseudo verification process is heavily flawed with workarounds.

I think Black Box Customs should maybe address the thread and the messages written by Shawn.

I would hate for the anti's to make an example out of Black Box Customs when they ask for more restrictions on the sale of fun things. Soon you won't be able to buy a sling or some oil without papers. Let's not expedite the process.

 

[Jericho]

We were defrauded last week over a Kestrel and then attempted fraud over 2 more. The last 2 would not send PAL/driver's licence as it was fraud. confirmed identity-cc theft.

Companies have to protect themselves as fraud is rampart.

We are witness to fraud out of Montreal-international organised crime. We have stopped many attempted frauds.

Regards,

Peter, Hirsch Precision Inc.

Peter, if the red tape continues, people will drop from the sport of hunting and sport shooting. Businesses will suffer and close.

ANY company that does online business - will always run into the issue of online fraud.

The fraud has to be dealt with legally and properly. Overreaching will allow to 'new norms' which in turn will hurt us all. Probably best to either become more innovative at combatting fraud (whilst taking some losses) - than not being able to pay your employees and your livelihood going out of business.

The last thing we need is to have Heidi or Wendy pointing to Black Box Customs or Hirsch Precision as the leaders in the firearms industry who are for more red tape.

 

[K45]

There is no way I will deal with a company that requires my pal to purchase items that are not legally required.

 

[Suther]

The last thing we need is to have Heidi or Wendy pointing to Black Box Customs or Hirsch Precision as the leaders in the firearms industry who are for more red tape.

So you'd rather them point to BBC as leaders in the firearms industry who are knowingly supplying gun parts for ghost guns?...

 

[aboynamedsuita]

It’s probably better that industry setup a framework themselves, or else the antis will make all the calls.

 

[Bubbafett33]

We were defrauded last week over a Kestrel and then attempted fraud over 2 more. The last 2 would not send PAL/driver's licence as it was fraud. confirmed identity-cc theft.

Companies have to protect themselves as fraud is rampart.

We are witness to fraud out of Montreal-international organised crime. We have stopped many attempted frauds.

Regards,

Peter, Hirsch Precision Inc.

No problem - but all companies have a legal obligation to protect user data.

For example, it's illegal, for your sales@company.com inbox to have a bunch of driver's license or PAL images/info. It goes against CC compliance policies for vendors (like West Coast Hunting) to request credit card information (and image of card) via email.

I personally have no problem showing a PAL for gun parts or a DL to avoid fraud...but I am 100% NOT using email for that process, and I am NOT trusting a vendor to manage (and delete) my info per PIPEDA law.

 

[Jericho]

So you'd rather them point to BBC as leaders in the firearms industry who are knowingly supplying gun parts for ghost guns?...

If Black Box Customs are knowingly supplying parts for ghost guns, than they've bigger issues than asking for PAL information online. If you know something we don't, feel free to share.

Without posting very easy workarounds and potentially giving the criminal element more information, I'll refrain. But if I could break it down on these forums, a lot of you would very easily see that these measures do little to nothing for public safety. It appears to me that this more financially geared, not safety geared. This move makes sense if a business has chargebacks to their merchant account from credit card fraud as generally speaking, PAL holders aren't usually criminals. But unless you confirm with CFO that the PAL/RPAL is legit, it could be a random number or someone else's number... and if we're using the CFO to verify licenses for non guns and ammo purchases, we just open more doors than needed.

 

[jg007]

I'll ask again, except this time expand it from Shawn to everyone:
What is the proposed solution?

 

[jg007]

Peter, if the red tape continues, people will drop from the sport of hunting and sport shooting. Businesses will suffer and close.

ANY company that does online business - will always run into the issue of online fraud.

The fraud has to be dealt with legally and properly. Overreaching will allow to 'new norms' which in turn will hurt us all. Probably best to either become more innovative at combatting fraud (whilst taking some losses) - than not being able to pay your employees and your livelihood going out of business.

The last thing we need is to have Heidi or Wendy pointing to Black Box Customs or Hirsch Precision as the leaders in the firearms industry who are for more red tape.

People will drop from the sport as a result of showing a pal.....?

 

[Suther]

If Black Box Customs are knowingly supplying parts for ghost guns, than they've bigger issues than asking for PAL information online. If you know something we don't, feel free to share.

Without posting very easy workarounds and potentially giving the criminal element more information, I'll refrain. But if I could break it down on these forums, a lot of you would very easily see that these measures do little to nothing for public safety. It appears to me that this more financially geared, not safety geared. This move makes sense if a business has chargebacks to their merchant account from credit card fraud as generally speaking, PAL holders aren't usually criminals. But unless you confirm with CFO that the PAL/RPAL is legit, it could be a random number or someone else's number... and if we're using the CFO to verify licenses for non guns and ammo purchases, we just open more doors than needed.

Although it is true that there are no laws in Canada requiring a PAL for parts purchases, over the last 6 months we have had an overwhelming amount of ill-intentioned people purchasing specific parts that are quite obviously being used to complete 3D printed firearms....

....

 

[shawn]

So you'd rather them point to BBC as leaders in the firearms industry who are knowingly supplying gun parts for ghost guns?...

Sorry but your red hearing that BBC not illegally collecting personal information equals knowingly supplying gun parts for "ghost guns" (LOL)

Shawn