black box customs undeclared shady business policy

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shawn said:
This is a perfect example of why we are in the position we are currently in regards to guns

Just look at this thread, how many people are willing to look the other way when someone they like does something bad. Just because you like them or they have done good things in the past does not mean they can not and are not doing something that is wrong.

Shawn
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So what is your proposed solution shawn?

On one side it appears You want zero collection of data and on the other black box wants to avoid assisting the illegal manufacture of handguns - how do we close the gap?

They could simply stop selling the products in question and no more pal confirm (but this prevents legitimate buyers will8jg to confirm a pal from having a source)
 
SomebodyTookMyName said:
Try to look at it from a dealer's point of view maybe...

Fraud is a very real thing. One site sponsor (whom I previously worked for) lost over $25,000 in high end optics to online order fraud in one year. It's hard to blame them for trying to cover their butts.

The PAL is an easy way of securely verifying someone's identity and preventing fraud. I can totally understand how it might be view as an overreach or invasion of privacy, but understand that if there's ANYONE else who has a vested interest in keeping firearms legal and avoiding further government entanglement in our lifestyle, it's the retailers who make a living selling guns and ammo...
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What if someone was buying a high end scope as a present and they didn't have a pal?
 
shawn said:
This is a perfect example of why we are in the position we are currently in regards to guns

Shawn
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We are in this position because we are losing the battle over young people, we need to get more youth and young people into shooting. Sorry but talking S*** online at 4 in the morning doesn’t help the cause, you need to get out support and grow the community. I’m 23 and I just recently join my range to help out at matches and get young people involved because if you don’t get them involved shooting sports will die with the old boys. Black box has the same mentally grow the community and get the youth involved with Gucci Glocks lol. Again I don’t support their decision on asking for PALs for not registered parts, but I like the way they get young people involved in the community. They just need guidance in there business practice but not full cancelation.
 
jg007 said:
So what is your proposed solution shawn?

On one side it appears You want zero collection of data and on the other black box wants to avoid assisting the illegal manufacture of handguns - how do we close the gap?

They could simply stop selling the products in question and no more pal confirm (but this prevents legitimate buyers will8jg to confirm a pal from having a source)
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We don't close the gap. If the government wants to pass laws and restrict access to certain things, then thats on them to ensure it happens, not private businesses. If the government wants to mandate that businesses check PALs for every firearm related purchase then so be it - its going to happen eventually in this country. BBC is taking matters into their own hands to subvert the manufacture of illegal firearms by requiring verification of certain purchases, that's their policy and its fine. I and many others will not be supporting a businesses that curtails efforts to make access to firearms by peaceful people more restricted.
 
I wonder if slamfire is gonna chime in here on this thread, may have missed it in the past 120+ posts.

I support the decision of BBC if it helps keep illegal 3D guns out of the hands of criminals… as they commit crimes which are then used to impugn the legal firearms community. Perhaps this also makes it a little inconvenient for lawful owners, but they ought to have a PAL anyway. There are some vendors where PAL and DOB are entered once and are used for subsequent orders, while I’m not a fan of providing more personal info than necessary, we’re buying from firearms businesses so I’d think it comes with the territory.

I’d also defy anyone to find LE willing to crack down on a vendor for asking for this info contrary to that regulation mentioned in a previous post.


EDIT- just saw in another thread slamfire got pinked
 
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Kudos on you for your professional conduct during this blatant sewering for doing your due diligence as to not accentuate or contribute to the illegal firearms in Canada. More people should have some awareness as to the scrutiny this industry is currently under. For myself and many others I shoot with, I am happy to provide PAL information to you to ensure your gun parts are being used responsibly by accountable and legal gun owners of Canada.

Give your balls a tug guys, they are covering their ass.

Thanks,
Stoney
 
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We were defrauded last week over a Kestrel and then attempted fraud over 2 more. The last 2 would not send PAL/driver's licence as it was fraud. confirmed identity-cc theft.

Companies have to protect themselves as fraud is rampart.

We are witness to fraud out of Montreal-international organised crime. We have stopped many attempted frauds.

Regards,

Peter, Hirsch Precision Inc.
 
Chilidip said:
So your plan to keep the government from forcing this type of regulation and legislation is by implementing it on your own?
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Industries that don't regulate themselves get regulated by the government, and the government ALWAYS goes farther than the industry is willing to go. I don't understand what is so hard about that concept...
 
HerrBrauckmann said:
We don't close the gap. If the government wants to pass laws and restrict access to certain things, then thats on them to ensure it happens, not private businesses. If the government wants to mandate that businesses check PALs for every firearm related purchase then so be it - its going to happen eventually in this country. BBC is taking matters into their own hands to subvert the manufacture of illegal firearms by requiring verification of certain purchases, that's their policy and its fine. I and many others will not be supporting a businesses that curtails efforts to make access to firearms by peaceful people more restricted.
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Let's remove the government it is a vendor/client issue. We work to close the gap or a) we lose supply of certain products b) we lose a vendor cause we vote with our wallet
 
First time I placed an online order for gun parts from RDSC I got a phone call asking for a PAL or RPAL number. The guy on the phone was polite in explaining their reasoning for checking that the parts were going to a licensed individual and assumed me that no records would be kept. I explained that I was driving truck and couldn't pull off to check my license and give him the info but I did tell him my number based off my memory. He said that was good enough to satisfy him that I did indeed have a license. Within about 2 minutes of hanging up my phone beeped that I had an email notification. It was my shipping notification. I doubt he even called it in to verify in that timeframe. Sometimes a quick phone call is enough to feel out the legitimacy of the buyer.

I had zero issue with being questioned, mainly because the way it happened assured me there was no additional risk to me. Subsequent orders all went through without any issues as I suspect they have a way of simply adding a note or something to the account that lets them know all is good.

I do however have a huge issue with companies requiring emailed photos of additional documents such as drivers licenses etc.. as there is no way of guaranteeing where these electronic correspondences end up. My privacy is more important to me than a dealers needy feeling to aquire personal information that's not legally necessary and/or not done in a way that guarantees my privacy/safety.
 
remington jim said:
A Pal should ONLY be Required For Restricted - Prohibited Firearms Purchases only - NOTHING Else ! jmo RJ

The Plastic PAL Card is still not gonna change a BAD person into a GOOD person !
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This kind of thing makes me worried for our community if someone who(presumably) has their Pal/Rpal but doesn't know that it is obviously required for non-restricted firearms as well... not only does a store need to check your Pal to be valid when buying a non-restricted firearm, but also an individual in a private sale as the obligation to confirm a valid Pal when selling a non-restricted...

I'm not trying to throw you under the bus Jim and I'm honestly assuming you do know the above but were trying to make the point of actual gun sales vs parts but what you did say was factually incorrect.

The "Plastic Pal Card" in itself does indeed not change someone from Bad to Good, but I would hope we can all agree that by being able to obtain a Pal greatly increases your chances of being a good person... though good is a relative term I suppose, as some of the #### being slung around on this forum is anything but good... we are literally all on the same side but instead of finding some common ground and coming to some understanding we apparently immediately need to point fingers like everyone else does to us...
 
HerrBrauckmann said:
I meant what I said.



Ask BBC, they're the ones requiring a firearms license to purchase a part. Do you support Lordco asking for your drivers license to buy spark plugs.?
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Lets unpack your analogy - does that mean lordco is restricting the legal ownership of cars? Are spark plugs commonly used to build illegal cars?
 
jiffx2781 said:
First time I placed an online order for gun parts from RDSC I got a phone call asking for a PAL or RPAL number. The guy on the phone was polite in explaining their reasoning for checking that the parts were going to a licensed individual and assumed me that no records would be kept. I explained that I was driving truck and couldn't pull off to check my license and give him the info but I did tell him my number based off my memory. He said that was good enough to satisfy him that I did indeed have a license. Within about 2 minutes of hanging up my phone beeped that I had an email notification. It was my shipping notification. I doubt he even called it in to verify in that timeframe. Sometimes a quick phone call is enough to feel out the legitimacy of the buyer.

I had zero issue with being questioned, mainly because the way it happened assured me there was no additional risk to me. Subsequent orders all went through without any issues as I suspect they have a way of simply adding a note or something to the account that lets them know all is good.

I do however have a huge issue with companies requiring emailed photos of additional documents such as drivers licenses etc.. as there is no way of guaranteeing where these electronic correspondences end up. My privacy is more important to me than a dealers needy feeling to aquire personal information that's not legally necessary and/or not done in a way that guarantees my privacy/safety.
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This whole process kept the public safe... how ?
 
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