do you download cartrdges

[redbirddog]

I have a 223 recipe I used for sniper matches that was just sweet. 2100fps, consistent and less wear and tear on my AR. But I dont have to worry about that any more.

When loading up many loads you find that lighter loads are the most accurate. The book is just the book. Match with what shoots well for you in your gun and Altitude and temperature.

 

[mimile]

It seems to me we are talking about two different things here: loading down and reduced loads. These are two different things if I understand correctly.

Let's take a 270 Win as an example with a 130 grain bullet like a Nosler partition. Looking at load data from Nosler for all the listed powders, the velocity obtainable goes from around 2730 fps to around 3150 fps. Although the 270 Win was conceived to shoot a 130 grains bullet at 3150 fps, I can choose to load it down to 2800 fps if the circumstances of my hunting do not require such high speed. That's typical if want to use my 270 Win from a tree stand and shoot a deer at 50 yards. The ability to do so will depend on the powder I choose.

Reduced loads are quite different. Often the minimal powder charge of special powders, listed in loading manuals, say H4895, is reduced by 30% in order to get reduced loads. The velocity obtained falls far below the ones listed in loading manuals. For a 270 Win the velocity could be 2000 fps or less. This is a reduced load. Some manuals list Trail Boss for reduced loads as well.

The more cartridges/calibers we own, the less we need to load down...For that, I understand Dave when he says he does not see much need for it. A hunter who owns a 270 Win and a 6.5x55 does not need to load down the 270 Win if he wants to shoot from a tree stand. All he has to do is to load the 6.5x55 to its optimal velocity. Voilà.

I take both my 6.5x55 loaded with a 140 grains to 2750 fps and my 270 Win loaded with a 130 grains to 2800 fps when I go to the woods. For long shots, i use the 270 win loaded with at 130 grains to a velocity of 3060 fps.

 

[WhelanLad]

It seems to me we are talking about two different things here: loading down and reduced loads. These are two different things if I understand correctly.

Let's take a 270 Win as an example with a 130 grain bullet like a Nosler partition. Looking at load data from Nosler for all the listed powders, the velocity obtainable goes from around 2730 fps to around 3150 fps. Although the 270 Win was conceived to shoot a 130 grains bullet at 3150 fps, I can choose to load it down to 2800 fps if the circumstances of my hunting do not require such high speed. That's typical if want to use my 270 Win from a tree stand and shoot a deer at 50 yards. The ability to do so will depend on the powder I choose.

Reduced loads are quite different. Often the minimal powder charge of special powders, listed in loading manuals, say H4895, is reduced by 30% in order to get reduced loads. The velocity obtained falls far below the ones listed in loading manuals. For a 270 Win the velocity could be 2000 fps or less. This is a reduced load. Some manuals list Trail Boss for reduced loads as well.

The more cartridges/calibers we own, the less we need to load down...For that, I understand Dave when he says he does not see much need for it. A hunter who owns a 270 Win and a 6.5x55 does not need to load down the 270 Win if he wants to shoot from a tree stand. All he has to do is to load the 6.5x55 to its optimal velocity. Voilà.

I take both my 6.5x55 loaded with a 140 grains to 2750 fps and my 270 Win loaded with a 130 grains to 2800 fps when I go to the woods. For long shots, i use the 270 win loaded with at 130 grains to a velocity of 3060 fps.

yep- you get the drift though!

not so much majorly reduced loads like h4895 % game, more so.... just not nipping on the heels of the upper limit of said cartridge...
why blow the heels off a 308, when ya could use a min loaded 300wsm ? etc, an exactly as some mention, dowlonading their 308, to a 30-30 like cartridge for their intended purpose- tree stand/blind hunting 50yards etc.

i also found love with 270 win an 130gr cup an core sp at 2800fps... even at 300m an i think i tipped one at 350 odd with it, sure the Vortx factory at 3060? made the next 400m shot a tad easier.... but it didnt make that 270 @2800 ill effective.

this old blokes 35 whelen ammo, is a few .gr below min, i suspect the same thing, close range or plinking, easir on his shoulder and effective.

my 3006 is a matter of the wrong powder, so its like 2500, rather than some published 2900fps 180gr loads.... to me , thats downloaded.

 

[Andy]

I only download cartridges for cast bullets which I use in older rifles of lower strength, for their economy, and for their pleasure in plinking.

I have found that the most accurate loads are almost always at or near the max load for a given powder.

 

[Longwalker]

I had a rather unique situation for which a reduced load was the perfect solution. I recently bought a Light, trim Krieghoff Hubertus single shot rifle in .30 R Blaser. Factory RWS loads are expensive and powerful, 184 grains bonded bullet and work great on the one moose I've taken so far. It is equivalent in power to a .300 H&H magnum and a bit of a handful in the light kipplauf rifle. Lighter loads with less recoil were not available for that obscure cartridge. So I developed a load for practise and deer hunting using a standard Hornady 150 gr. cup and core bullet, at the same velocity and trajectory as the 184 grain, and with a moderate charge of H4895. Perfect. Shoots to the same point of impact, Cheaper to shoot, expect it will kill deer just fine, and it's accurate. It's a load equivalent to the .308 Winchester.
I also loaded some cheap 300 gr. RN bullets for my .375 H&H with a fairly light charge of IMR3031 and a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps. 200 fps slower than factory, and much less recoil. Easy to shoot and worked perfectly on the one whitetail deer I shot with it.

 

[mimile]

I only download cartridges for cast bullets which I use in older rifles of lower strength, for their economy, and for their pleasure in plinking.

I have found that the most accurate loads are almost always at or near the max load for a given powder.

I agree with you Andy. The important word here is almost. Most often this is the case but not always. Each powder/cartridge can have multiple load nodes, some are close to the max published loads some higher and some much lower. That's the beauty of custom loading: finding the optimal load for a specific rifle and for specific use. As an example: there is certainly no need for a 270 win shooting a 130 grains bullet at 3150 fps if I am using it from a tree stand. 2800 fps is more than enough and more appropriate. Using less powder will prolong the life of the barrel and destroy less meat...These days it is good to use less powder whenever we can....

 

[Rynnik]

Every caliber I reload for I have light, normal and hot loads for. Part of the fun of reloading for me. If I was happy with a single velocity out of one firearm I’d just buy factory ammo. Maybe it is the artillery instincts kicking in? I don’t know but I don’t consider load development complete if I can’t find a few different velocities that shoot well. And when I do ‘complete’ a caliber is usually buy a different projectile and start all over again.

I wonder what sort of pattern I can get from 303 Br shotshells….. runs off and happily tinkers for a few more days.

 

[saskgunowner101]

Every caliber I reload for I have light, normal and hot loads for. Part of the fun of reloading for me. If I was happy with a single velocity out of one firearm I’d just buy factory ammo. Maybe it is the artillery instincts kicking in? I don’t know but I don’t consider load development complete if I can’t find a few different velocities that shoot well. And when I do ‘complete’ a caliber is usually buy a different projectile and start all over again.

I wonder what sort of pattern I can get from 303 Br shotshells….. runs off and happily tinkers for a few more days.

Sometimes you make chili that gramma can enjoy, and other times it's chili the devil would refuse lol. I'm the same way. A couple fun examples around here, are 45 Colt shotshells in my wifes 410 for yard pests. They're .3 of an ounce and probably 900 fps, kill any pest within 8-10 meters, and don't make her go deaf. Same with her 243, watered down 65 grain v-max going around 2600 fps. Almost as accurate as peppy loads, but still good enough for coyotes 100-200 meters. Basically a soft 223.

 

[Ganderite]

Yes, i sometimes download.

My SKS is over-gassed. When I shoot it in a rapid fire match I don't need all that energy. I drop the powder charge from 25 gr to 18 gr. makes for a nice shot that i can quickly get back on target.

 

[Bubba Yugga]

Yes, i sometimes download.

My SKS is over-gassed. When I shoot it in a rapid fire match I don't need all that energy. I drop the powder charge from 25 gr to 18 gr. makes for a nice shot that i can quickly get back on target.

Just for $h!t$ and giggles, I developed a subsonic load for the SKS.
It's got a Speer .303 180 SP over 15 gn of IMR 4198 sparked by a CCI 250 primer.
It's pretty accurate, bang on 1000 FPS, and cycles the action every time.
Great for upgrading the tykes from their Cooeys, and is easy on the ears.

 

[WhelanLad]

I agree with you Andy. The important word here is almost. Most often this is the case but not always. Each powder/cartridge can have multiple load nodes, some are close to the max published loads some higher and some much lower. That's the beauty of custom loading: finding the optimal load for a specific rifle and for specific use. As an example: there is certainly no need for a 270 win shooting a 130 grains bullet at 3150 fps if I am using it from a tree stand. 2800 fps is more than enough and more appropriate. Using less powder will prolong the life of the barrel and destroy less meat...These days it is good to use less powder whenever we can....

using Varget?? i did with 130s an for around 2850, worked awesome an much beter to shoot!

45gr from memory...

 

[mimile]

using Varget?? i did with 130s an for around 2850, worked awesome an much beter to shoot!

45gr from memory...

Not Varget. Just 55 grains H4831sc, which is 5 grains lower than the pet load of 60 grains H4831sc for 130 grains bullets. The pressure is supposed to be less than 45000 PSI. Very mild recoil as well.

 

[g-manz35]

I spent last Sunday with my 12 year old shooting some hunting rifles. I had a 308 with a 110 gr bullet loaded down to 2500 fps. Poor kid only weighs 85 lbs and is not a huge fan of recoil. He could however shoot this load comfortably. I will slowly increase the powder charge slowly and then move up to a 125 grain bullet. I'm thinking a few more trips to the range over the summer and fall to get comfortable shooting. I'm hoping in the end to have a 125 gr Nos BT moving at about 2600-2700 for him to shoot deer with. I think my scenario is a great reason to load down a round.

 

[jamesharrison]

Perhaps another way to look at it.

I suppose the below-noted comparisons work only if we accept the hypotheses that the chosen bullet (117 gr. in a quarter-bore & 250 grains in an 8.5mm bore) is equal to the task at hand. Bullet construction, of course, adds a whole new dimension to the discussion at hand.

250 gr. @ "normal/factory" muzzle velocity
.35 W.C.F. - 2,200 fps
.358 Winchester - 2,230 fps
.35 Whelen - 2,400 fps
.358 Norma - 2,750 fps

Is a .358 Norma “down-loaded” to Whelen velocities less of a killer, or perhaps more, given that a slowed-down bullet may not explode like a varmint bullet, thereby increasing penetration, while still expanding sufficiently?

Repeat this for a Whelen down-loaded to .358 Winchester velocities. Better or worse?

Granted, a lot of the performance will depend on the specific bullet used. (Think of the old Winchester 0.358” 250 or 270 grain Silvertip or Power Point bullets designed for .35 W.C.F. or .358 Winchester velocities; fine for up to Whelen velocities but not much good, at least for deer+ sized game in a .358 Norma, unless you like "sniping" deer at a “fair-piece” away, where velocity has diminished so that their terminal ballistics are within their design envelope.)

117 gr. @ "normal/factory" muzzle velocity
.250-3000 - 2,600 fps
.257 Roberts +P – 2,780 fps
.25-06 2,990 fps
.25 WSSM 3,060 fps
.257 Wby. 3,350 fps
Is a .257 Weatherby “down-loaded” to .25 WSSM or .25-06 velocities less of a killer, or perhaps more, given that a slowed-down bullet may not explode like a varmint bullet, thereby increasing penetration, while still expanding sufficiently?

How about a .25-06 down-loaded to .257 Roberts +P velocities. Better or worse?

 

[mimile]

Jamesharrison,

Just for the sake of discussion: downloading is only valid for a given cartridge, it is not term used to compare different cartridges within a caliber...Taking your example for the 35 caliber, you can download the 35 Whelen to 2200 fps. By doing that, you get the same speed as with the 35 WCF, but the only downloaded would be the 35 Whelen...LOL.

So it all depends on what you want to do with your caliber/bullet. I am not familiar with the calibers you mention. If a given load gives you much recoil or meat destruction, it can be interesting to download. You decide what is better for your needs. That's the point.

 

[saskgunowner101]

Jamesharrison,
Just for the sake of discussion: downloading is only valid for a given cartridge, it is not term used to compare different cartridges within a caliber...Taking your example for the 35 caliber, you can download the 35 Whelen to 2200 fps. By doing that, you get the same speed as with the 35 WCF, but the only downloaded would be the 35 Whelen...LOL.

You know how I know it's beer:30 where you are? This post.

 

[barsik]

some of the older Hodgdon reloading manuals have reduced load data for lead bullets using powders that would not normally be loaded with such a light charge. most likely these powders have been upgraded/reformulated so these suggested loads are no longer safe.

 

[junkdude]

a wise man said SPEED is fine..........ACCURACY is final ....you see the most accurate loads in any gun is almost never the fastest......the ability to find ...the load....in any given firearm is a quest that slam bangers are afraid to take on........cast bullets and otherwise the fun is in the good the bad and on occasion the ugly......its you against the unknown ...and always make your notes.......and carry on......reduced loads make lots of firearms get to your hand and not a talk about on the shelf good luck have fun////////////

Almost all of my rifle loads are at approx 75% of the way to max. For whatever reason this seems to be the most accurate sweet spot in my rifles from 30-06 down to 22hornet.

 

[Grey_Wolf]

I don't load light. I load for accuracy, if that happens to be at a slower speed then so be it. Doesn't make sense to squeeze out a couple hundred more fps if accuracy goes out the window. The only time speed is really a consideration is if shooting long range - you need to ensure enough velocity for proper expansion of the bullet. That's where picking the right bullet for the job is important or to say it another way not expecting the bullet to do something it isn't designed for.

 

[saskgunowner101]

some of the older Hodgdon reloading manuals have reduced load data for lead bullets using powders that would not normally be loaded with such a light charge. most likely these powders have been upgraded/reformulated so these suggested loads are no longer safe.

I tend to think it's more likely that it's to save idiots from themselves. For the most part, older manuals show lighter charges of faster powders that you don't see printed today, normal loads, and sometimes less than ideal powders that still work. Things can go really wrong with the first and last category if you're careless or dumb.