Best Way To Setup Die For .001 Shoulder Bump

I don't agree with longbow in the sense that he over emphasizes the importance of fundamentals... as my eyes roll. I mean this is a gun forum... If you are a total newb, then yes. You cannot have bad habits, fear of flinching and dont hold your head on the gun... obviously bad habits. I'm assuming you don't suffer from obviously bad shooting skills.

But to shoot at extended distances, you need to learn about calculating trajectory, understanding how to estimate wind and its affect from different directions, mirage, brightness of light etc.

I never ever think about fundamentals, and never blame fundamentals for any miss. It's always always something I missed on ballistics or a wind call.

If you are totally new, then yes you need to learn how to fire the rifle, but for most they get through that fairly quickly. After that, for long range its mostly atmospherics... Within the limits of your rifle and ammo and that whole rabbit hole.

So in other words while shooting F Class you have performed enough correct repetitions to develop unconscious competence. So you do not have to focus on them.

Most of the studies on how many reps it takes to develop these neural pathways suggests many thousands. Many folks either do not perform these reps correctly so are stuck with poor habits(which take many more reps to correct) or get stuck in the stage prior which is conscious competence. This can work fine in general shooting but add other tasks or layer on other stressors(time for instance and the wheels come off). IPSC shooters will recognize this as it happens all the time with newer shooters. This is where the higher level skills such as wind reading can become too much for these folks. Hell even not cross firing, as I saw at the NS APM can be more than they can handle.

Changing disciplines can be equally challenging to folks who have achieved unconscious competence in one style of shooting. A couple of years ago I watched a very experienced F class shooters at his first PRS match get completely lost in his turrets. While not a traditional fundamental of marksmanship per say, certainly a relatively simple administrative task that became beyond him in a new situation.
 
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the wind reading book by Miller and Cunningham. If you don't already have it, get it asap.

Then learn the concept of centering a group. The biggest hurdle with an unstable barrel is the confusion it will cause wrt to learning how to overcome conditions. Chasing a condition that isn't there because your barrel has launched a shot into the weeds is both frustrating and incredibly expensive.

Doubt is the most expensive handicap you can put into your shooting.

How much will it cost having to rebuild the lack of confidence in your skills/understanding?

How do you know if your fundamentals are working? How do you know if your wind call makes sense?

If you truly want to learn.... LEARN! and that starts with gear that will help you on your journey... not impede it.

Doesn't have to cost alot of money to get reliable, accurate and stable gear.

YMMV

Jerry

I would agree that the Miller and Cunningham book is a good place to start particularly for F Class and TR but useful in all long range shooting I think.
They focus on developing a systematic approach. One of their major points is ensuring you have developed the ability to execute the perfect shot or else you are making decisions based on faulty information and inputs.

Their other book The Secrets of Mental Marksmanship is also a very good winter read for any competitive shooter.
 
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A friend has a AMP annealer and has taken my 500 rounds of .243 to anneal. Once I get them back, and have a chance to do a minimal shoulder bump I will see what the results are, and if the .001 makes a difference and will reset into the precision rifle. Will be interesting as some of the brass is one time fired, others are 8 times fired. And I’ve ordered a Gong Joe Echo annealer so I can then anneal after every round for all the calibers I shoot. Another step into the black hole of reloading LOL.
 
IMO, consistency is the key. All changes must remain the same. So if you adjust your sizing die using a piece of brass that is closing hard on your chamber, just bump it back until there is eazy chambering of brass. (typically 1/8 turns of the die or less when you get close to the sweet spot). Once you get easy chambering I would bet you have 1-2thou clearance. Set the die, lock it in, and keep it the same for all your future sizing. Then use a redding bushing die for your neck sizing.
Having a Redding body die for this job makes the job easy and consistent as this would be the first step in the sizing process for all brass to come thereafter.
I found you will find there is variations that will show up on some brass that fits tighter than others, and you use those for sighters. That is my practical findings on the subject thus far. Good luck with your adventure.
 
spend the money or find a batch of 20 to 40 cases that are same manf and lot and unfired. Same headstamp doesn't mean same brass... unless it came out of the same ammo box.

components are expensive and hard to find... eliminate variables while you learn. Once you have a baseline of experience AND confirm a load that works, by all means, play with the salvaged stuff you have cause now you can eliminate items that don't fit your tune.

As I have said to you on numerous posts, there is a process... you are free to do as you please but at some point, you will tire of chasing your tail.

good luck

Jerry

PS... assuming things must be a certain way... usually leads to alot of frustration in this sport.
 
None of my ammo is salvaged, it’s all been fired thru only 1 rifle until I got the precision. I’ve also labelled and noted what was fired, trimmed, number of resizes, etc. And almost, but not quite, all of it is Federal brass, but I read what all of you are saying. At the end of the day may need to pu a few 50 bags of new unfired brass.
 
factory ammo fired in your rifle is just fine... work with 20 from the same box (better if you have 40 pc of the same type and lot of factory ammo) and learn how to load. When you wear it out, start on another batch and so forth. Limit your variables and number of pieces of ammo.... until you have figured out how to load.

You need to fireform the case anyways, which you have now done. Nothing wrong with FED... just keep pressures within SAAMI parameters

Vary only 1 item, which for me is powder... see how every load prints on target (200min.. better 300yds). Just focus on the target and where the shots land vs conditions.

Good scale, 0.2gr increments, 3rd groups to start... and work up your load. You will make mistakes so may as well do it with brass you already have. The pattern will be really easy to see where your nodes are. I don't use the ladder 1 shot test as there are way too many ways to add variables.

Jerry
 
factory ammo fired in your rifle is just fine... work with 20 from the same box (better if you have 40 pc of the same type and lot of factory ammo) and learn how to load. When you wear it out, start on another batch and so forth. Limit your variables and number of pieces of ammo.... until you have figured out how to load.

You need to fireform the case anyways, which you have now done. Nothing wrong with FED... just keep pressures within SAAMI parameters

Vary only 1 item, which for me is powder... see how every load prints on target (200min.. better 300yds). Just focus on the target and where the shots land vs conditions.

Good scale, 0.2gr increments, 3rd groups to start... and work up your load. You will make mistakes so may as well do it with brass you already have. The pattern will be really easy to see where your nodes are. I don't use the ladder 1 shot test as there are way too many ways to add variables.

Jerry

There's always more than one way to skin a cat...

If you take Jerrys advice, you will end up with little lot fragments that you have to manage very carefully, but within these little lot fragments is production grade variability that you are committing to accepting through such practice. There was a time when I did this as well, but I have moved on... way on.

These days I buy once fired military brass in large quantities.. I'll work with IVI, but certainly prefer Lake City. Don't obsess over the brand but you want all the same brand.

I'll buy several thousand at a time at a cost per thousand that is about the same as a new cost per hundred.

If you were to take 1000 peices of brass and weigh all of them and divide them into lots of 100 closest in weight, you will have lots with 1/10th of the weight variation of a random group. If you do the same with 2000 you will get lots of 100 with weight variations of 1/20th of a random group... and so on. Sorting brass this way, you should get lots of 100 within 1/10 of a grain.

You absolutely do not need to buy expensive new brass to achieve consistency...

If you neck turn the brass, and anneal you will be much farther ahead, and you'll have money left over to buy more bullets.

Resize this bulk brass twice, once with a regular die, then again with a small base die, tumble it in stainless media and then treat it as you would new brass. Rock on.

It's a big one time job, perfect for the winter, but once complete, you may never need to buy brass again.
 
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There's always more than one way to skin a cat...

If you take Jerrys advice, you will end up with little lot fragments that you have to manage very carefully, but within these little lot fragments is production grade variability that you are committing to accepting through such practice. There was a time when I did this as well, but I have moved on... way on.

These days I buy once fired military brass in large quantities.. I'll work with IVI, but certainly prefer Lake City. Don't obsess over the brand but you want all the same brand.

I'll buy several thousand at a time at a cost per thousand that is about the same as a new cost per hundred.

If you were to take 1000 peices of brass and weigh all of them and divide them into lots of 100 closest in weight, you will have lots with 1/10th of the weight variation of a random group. If you do the same with 2000 you will get lots of 100 with weight variations of 1/20th of a random group... and so on. Sorting brass this way, you should get lots of 100 within 1/10 of a grain.

You absolutely do not need to buy expensive new brass to achieve consistency...

If you neck turn the brass, and anneal you will be much farther ahead, and you'll have money left over to buy more bullets.

Resize this bulk brass twice, once with a regular die, then again with a small base die, tumble it in stainless media and then treat it as you would new brass. Rock on.

It's a big one time job, perfect for the winter, but once complete, you may never need to buy brass again.

A couple of questions .
At what point in the process do you sort it.
What have you done to the brass prior to sorting
Do you sort it again. IE after trimming etc
What is the downrange effect you have measured and did you isolate this one variable to measure it
 
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Upon receipt of brass, I wet tumble all of it, just to get it clean.
Then I remove the primers and primer crimp.
Anneal
Resize with FL die
Resize with small base die
Neck turn... twice... First time is rough pass... Second time is a light pass with a larger mandrel to ensure tight fit. This second pass is to make the wall thickness as perfect as it can be. I use two neck turning tools so I dont need to adjust often.
Length trim and deburr.
Wet tumble again to remove all lube.
Weight sorting involves using a sharpie to write the weight on each case. Then sort into groups of same weight. For this I use a 1 decimal place scale. This results in case to case weight variation within the accuracy of the scale.

As for downrange.. or chronograph testing, the results have been the same as when using weight sorted Lapua... so I no longer buy Lapua.

The caveat to this is you need to have a source for once fired brass in the caliber you are using. Works great for 223 and 308

Before loading, I quickly chamfer inside of necks again with a 1/4" shank cone shaped carbide burr. This removes any nicks from tumbling.

At this point, it needs to be fire formed in your rifle with a light load. After that, go ahead and treat as match brass.

Since the cases weigh the same and have been blown out to your chamber, they are as volumetrically identical as you are going to get regardless of brand.
 
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Upon receipt of brass, I wet tumble all of it, just to get it clean.
Then I remove the primers and primer crimp.
Anneal
Resize with FL die
Resize with small base die
Neck turn... twice... First time is rough pass... Second time is a light pass with a larger mandrel to ensure tight fit. This second pass is to make the wall thickness as perfect as it can be. I use two neck turning tools so I dont need to adjust often.
Length trim and deburr.
Wet tumble again to remove all lube.
Weight sorting involves using a sharpie to write the weight on each case. Then sort into groups of same weight. For this I use a 1 decimal place scale. This results in case to case weight variation within the accuracy of the scale.

As for downrange.. or chronograph testing, the results have been the same as when using weight sorted Lapua... so I no longer buy Lapua.

The caveat to this is you need to have a source for once fired brass in the caliber you are using. Works great for 223 and 308

Before loading, I quickly chamfer inside of necks again with a 1/4" shank cone shaped carbide burr. This removes any nicks from tumbling.

At this point, it needs to be fire formed in your rifle with a light load. After that, go ahead and treat as match brass.

Since the cases weigh the same and have been blown out to your chamber, they are as volumetrically identical as you are going to get regardless of brand.

I just have trouble squaring this circle based on what I have been explained about how brass is created.

Below are not my words but rather a paragraph from the Peterson Cart company website. When I visited Lapua they essentially said the same thing.

The main variables that cause differences in weight from case to case are as follows:

Material removed when cutting in the extraction groove.
External head thickness
Head diameter
Sectional density of the webbing (the base of the casing)

Notice what each of these have in common? They don’t relate to internal volume.

That’s right – the main contributors to weight variances don’t have anything to do with internal volume consistency.

The more accurate, and tedious, way to measure internal volume is by volumetric water testing. But even then, if the meniscus isn’t identical each time, you can still have a reading that is off by as much as a grain.

Back to my words, certainly weight sorting is easy enough to do and I think I will give it a shot for F class, not really required for PRS. Will be curious if I can see a any improvement in down range performance for Lapua brass
 
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I just have trouble squaring this circle based on what I have been explained about how brass is created.

Below are not my words but rather a paragraph from the Peterson Cart company website. When I visited Lapua they essentially said the same thing.

The main variables that cause differences in weight from case to case are as follows:

Material removed when cutting in the extraction groove.
External head thickness
Head diameter
Sectional density of the webbing (the base of the casing)

Notice what each of these have in common? They don’t relate to internal volume.

That’s right – the main contributors to weight variances don’t have anything to do with internal volume consistency.

The more accurate, and tedious, way to measure internal volume is by volumetric water testing. But even then, if the meniscus isn’t identical each time, you can still have a reading that is off by as much as a grain.

Back to my words, certainly weight sorting is easy enough to do and I think I will give it a shot for F class, not really required for PRS. Will be curious if I can see a any improvement in down range performance for Lapua brass

Correct....and why I do not recommend weight sorting brass.

And I have yet to find any batch of brass from the same lot that varied in case volume to matter. Spot testing some brass from Peterson and Starline reinforce that todays manfs make very consistent brass... even if weight varies (which don't matter of course)

Alloys vary from lot to lot so can react different to annealing and other case prep steps. Mixing lots can cause headaches so buying 'large batches' of mixed whatever is kind of counterproductive imho.

YMMV
Jerry
 
I just have trouble squaring this circle based on what I have been explained about how brass is created.

Below are not my words but rather a paragraph from the Peterson Cart company website. When I visited Lapua they essentially said the same thing.

The main variables that cause differences in weight from case to case are as follows:

Material removed when cutting in the extraction groove.
External head thickness
Head diameter
Sectional density of the webbing (the base of the casing)

Notice what each of these have in common? They don’t relate to internal volume.

That’s right – the main contributors to weight variances don’t have anything to do with internal volume consistency.

The more accurate, and tedious, way to measure internal volume is by volumetric water testing. But even then, if the meniscus isn’t identical each time, you can still have a reading that is off by as much as a grain.

Back to my words, certainly weight sorting is easy enough to do and I think I will give it a shot for F class, not really required for PRS. Will be curious if I can see a any improvement in down range performance for Lapua brass

Water sorting is absolutely not a more accurate sorting method. All water weight is good for is to approximate internal case volume to calculate load density. The error in water sorting is greater than the error you are trying to sort out.

As for the rest of it, you are free to conclude what you want. If you are concerned that a case is light because the extractor groove is under size then inspect the dimensions of every case and sort again. Take it as far as you want.

In the end there will be variances regardless of the brand you buy. If you start with a large lot of any brand, you can sort it into more consistent lots, if you are so committed. Inspect to your hearts content.
 
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Correct....and why I do not recommend weight sorting brass.

And I have yet to find any batch of brass from the same lot that varied in case volume to matter. Spot testing some brass from Peterson and Starline reinforce that todays manfs make very consistent brass... even if weight varies (which don't matter of course)

Alloys vary from lot to lot so can react different to annealing and other case prep steps. Mixing lots can cause headaches so buying 'large batches' of mixed whatever is kind of counterproductive imho.

YMMV
Jerry

Interestingly broad statements Jerry. Except none of the demons you've identified have ever reared their ugly heads in my world.

You are saying that regardless of the variation in the lot of brass you have, weight sorting that brass would have no benefit over not weight sorting.... That casts a broad net and is equally fully of holes.

But OMG, brass density is affected by annealing now and case prep as well. Next dimness of light affects it as well I assume is what you're saying.

As for alloys vary from lot to lot... Laughable. Within the same head stamp, such a variance would not be detectable. You'd have to mix extremely different brands for that to hold any credibility.

Just like your advice not to use a 3 decimal place scale, not sorting brass is somehow better than sorted. And loads weighed with a 2 decimal place scale are just as good as loads weighed on a 3 decimal place scale right?

If you are just too lazy to make the effort then just say it. Don't justify halfasssing it any other way.
 
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Interestingly broad statements Jerry. Except none of the demons you've identified have ever reared their ugly heads in my world.

You are saying that regardless of the variation in the lot of brass you have, weight sorting that brass would have no benefit over not weight sorting.... That casts a broad net and is equally fully of holes. Jerry is correct

But OMG, brass density is affected by annealing now and case prep as well. Jerry did not say this, not at all. Check your reading comprehensionNext dimness of light affects it as well I assume is what you're saying.

As for alloys vary from lot to lot... Laughable. Within the same head stamp, such a variance would not be detectable. You'd have to mix extremely different brands for that to hold any credibility. Brass most definitely varies lot to lot. Due to change in alloy? Maybe, I’m certainly not going to dismiss the possibility as laughable.

Just like your advice not to use a 3 decimal place scale, not sorting brass is somehow better than sorted. And loads weighed with a 2 decimal place scale are just as good as loads weighed on a 3 decimal place scale right? Jerry is again, quite correct.

If you are just too lazy to make the effort then just say it. Don't justify halfasssing it any other way.

We have a BR shooter in our club. Has won the Cdn Championship. Has set Cdn records. Doesn’t weigh his brass. Doesn’t even clean it. Also doesn’t even weigh his powder charges, just throws and goes. He is the guy to beat at every match. Doesn’t get beat very often…
 
Funny how one can discount data and experience just because they don't like it. dismissing is so much easier then actually proving a point.

And it is wonderful how we can extrapolate to any extreme ... cause that is what you must be saying.

Anyone is free to accept or disagree. I just go by what I have seen in my testing over a couple of decades. Believe me or not, will not change my experiences and that typically includes sample sizes far larger then the norm.

my targets seem to agree with me.... as do my scores

I would love to see some internal volume testing of current manf Peterson, Lapua, and Starline brass... vs weight of course.

Doubt that is going to happen.... :)

Jerry

PS... you know the alloys are different when you trash a bunch of brass from the same manf BUT different lot and use a very precise annealer. Number of firings can also have an affect vs others from the same lot... but let's step away from real world testing. Far better to 'suppose'
 
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We have a BR shooter in our club. Has won the Cdn Championship. Has set Cdn records. Doesn’t weigh his brass. Doesn’t even clean it. Also doesn’t even weigh his powder charges, just throws and goes. He is the guy to beat at every match. Doesn’t get beat very often…

Do you realize that case mass variation affects velocity?

The person you know is a bench rest shooter huh... so he is an expert at short range shooting. I will assume that means 100-200 yards.

Do you have any effing idea how little muzzle velocity affects your vertical dispersion at such a close range?

Short range shooters can get away with murder on this, and only a complete fool would cast the advise of a 100 yard shooter on a 1000 yard discipline.

Advise is put fourth through the lens of ones own experiences. Be very careful about taking advice from a 100 yard shooter if you are a 1000 yard shooter.
 
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