I have been shooting various disciplines since 1966 and I cannot recall a match ever when the wind wasn't blowing and switching or the light conditions weren't changing
Cat
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Best Way To Setup Die For .001 Shoulder Bump
- Thread starter waynewjw
- Start date
Cat
The case datum length vs chamber also affects the bullet seating length, and the bullets themselves can have variances, there is a variance however small in all of those, all you can do is try to minimize them, so that the bullet winds up in the sweet range on the CBTO when the cartridge is in the chamber, and then you have powder burn variance due to temps and humidity, and neck tension. There is no perfect solution, even if you get all that to within a consistent parameter of variance, you still have to do your part at the range, with mental attitude and discipline at the firing line, and somehow managing the external conditions. Some days it works, some days it don't, that's life.
Just a word of caution. Savage bolts are different as they have a spring washer behind the bolthead. You will still have pressure when closing the bolt, even if you have removed the firing pin.
The best way is to measure +/-10 cases of 2 or 3 time fired mild loads (no signs of overpressure)
The largest value is your headspace. Load that case, see if the bolts locks easily and note that number down.
The best way is to measure +/-10 cases of 2 or 3 time fired mild loads (no signs of overpressure)
The largest value is your headspace. Load that case, see if the bolts locks easily and note that number down.
Here Here!
Here is how I think about it. Take for example a .308 with a good 175 Gr bullet shot at sea level at 2700fps ish.
At 6oom your wind deflection for a 4mph wind from 90 degrees will be .6mils/approx 2MOA. So for the first shot to make a wind call of 1MOA you need to call the wind within 2MPH. To call it within .5 MOA you need to make a call within 1mph. That is pretty darn good.
Now on a square range you are familiar with that has wind flags sure that is doable, but on a field firing range with targets at different ranges and directions of fire with some varying topography, well that is a challenge. Obviously in disciplines with sighters you get that opportunity before you go for record, but for those without, that first shot is critical to how the rest of the stage will go.
I help introduce new shooters to PR. Under match conditions with a time crunch they often struggle to even get the direction right.
So as I think about in the example it if someone reduces their group size by 1/8MOA(which I cant even dial on my Mil scope) they get an extra .25 MPH wind budget.
But if they improve their wind calling ability from 5MPH(where many seem start) to 3 MPH we are talking about a reduction better than 2 MOA.
Maple, not to discount your statement about novice shooters doing well in relatively benign conditions. I too have seen it happen.
But if there is no wind...well my observation is that good wind callers fundamentals are pretty sound. You don't get to be a good wind caller by making crappy shots.
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Initially, I deliberately set my FL die too high so the shoulder doesn't get pushed back at all, only the body and neck gets squeezed. This moves the shoulder ahead. It has no where else to go.
This is how I get brass that won't fit in my rifle, to give me something to work with.
If I do that with maybe 10 fired cases, I'll usually get a couple that won't allow the bolt to close.
I measure the shoulder position on those cases for reference.
Then I slowly turn the die down and re-size the cases. I work in increments about the width of a Sharpie line marked on the 7/8" thread diameter with a corresponding mark on the lock nut.
I think it's Forster that makes a lock nut with etched increments for just that purpose. Hirsch Precision had them in stock a few months ago.
I measure the shoulder position of the case after each increment, and check it in the rifle. Keep track of the measurements, again for reference.
As the shoulder of the die comes down, the shoulder of the case will begin to follow it.
I may need to re-anneal the case after several increments, it will work harden to some degree.
Once I get to the point where the bolt will just close with very mild resistance, I consider that to be the absolute maximum length I can get away with. I record that measurement in a safe place (if there is such a thing) for future reference. It'll be the same for the life of the rifle, or at least that barrel and chamber.
That number has zero relevance to anyone else's rifle, because it was arrived at using my particular comparator bushing.
Anyone else's measurements will very probably vary from that dimension, every tool is slightly different, and so is the degree of "feel" while taking the measurement. Plus, every chamber isn't the same.
That number is purely a reference for my use, in my rifle, using my tools.
Your mileage will vary, without a doubt. There are too many variables involved for it not to.
The point is, when I measure a case that will just barely chamber and get X.###", I know that the case dimension I am trying to achieve is X.###" minus 0.002", maybe 0.003" to be on the safe side.
I set my die to consistently produce brass that size. I know that gives me between .002-.003" of clearance. Anything shorter is a sloppy fit, anything longer runs the risk of not chambering.
That's for my bolt gun. If it were a semi-auto or a lever, I'd want somewhat more clearance. Many reloading manuals have a recommendation about that.
That's my initial setup procedure, anyway. I'm sure others are different.
I have been shooting various disciplines since 1966 and I cannot recall a match ever when the wind wasn't blowing and switching or the light conditions weren't changing
Cat
I can. It was the Ontario Provincial Championship. Cant remember the exact year though. It was dead stick all weekend that year.
Never say never... it happens.
From your post, I assume you are primarily a PRS shooter, or at least by your mils reference... not an F Class shooter.
In F Class, anyone who has any hope has their position down solid and they just don't break sloppy shots like someone might in PRS due to a difficult shooting position and time constraints.
So my point is made from an F Class perspective.
PRS is a different animal all together.
In many shooting disciplines "fundamentals" are over rated. I've heard guys harp on about what part of the index finger should be touching the trigger and how long the trigger should be held to the rear after the shot breaks to a guy with a wall full of trophies and plaques from winning events. Tell that to Jerry Miculek for example, or about a dozen F Class guys I know.
Just like in golf, people with and unorthodox swing win matches.
In the end, the trigger has to break while the rifle is pointing in the right direction. Some rifles like a hard hold and some like free recoil. That is up to the shooter to decide.
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Actually compete and do well in Canadian Style Precision Rifle, hold my own in PRS and sticking to the golf analogies am a duffer in F Class.(where yes I shoot MOA)
This is the point I am making. Your words "In F Class, anyone who has any hope has their position down solid and they just don't break sloppy"
Call it fundamentals or anything else you like, learning to be a good wind caller is going to be tough unless you can execute repeatable clean shots.
Miller and Cunningham repeatedly make that point in their Wind Calling Book.
Ahh golf my other sport. In golf well Jim Furyk (who has only won one major) and a few others aside, I would suggest that 95% or more of the top pro golfers work on picture perfect swings, both for the consistency and their bodies longevity. Sure there are lots of good bad golfers out there at the club level. But not many great bad golfers out there.
I guess the overall point I am trying to make is that after introducing 20 or so folks to Long Range Shooting in the past couple or years that while fascinating to some of us, that discussions about the criticality of bumping shoulders .001 or .002, weighing powder to the kernel, weight sorting primers and bullets, sorting cases by volume, often do newer/most shooters a great disservice. They simply don't know what is relevant to them at their stage of the journey. They become overwhelmed by and are unable to sort the wheat from the chaff, often causing themselves to question their choice of sport.
To be clear this in not a reflection on the OP experience or skill level.
Sure if you have developed the requisite musketry skills and have mastered the wind then perhaps these things are worthwhile. Even then I would question their return for most long range disciplines.
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waynewjw
CGN Regular
So I’m a new to this sport shooter as of 4 months ago, jumped into the deep end of the pool. Enjoy rimfire immensely and shoot with a great group of guys every Thurs from 4 til dusk. Two of the shooters have been shooting for several years and do win their share of competitions. I don’t know that I will compete in long range (don’t know what I don’t know) but have been reloading for about 10 years now, and enjoy the science, if I can use that word, of matching all the components to equate to superb groups. Will I take that knowledge to F-Class or other, again, to early to tell.
For rimfire, I’m working with 2 rifles and going through many brands of ammo to determine which rifle likes which and in the end I will boil it down to one rifle. For the .243, I have a beginners rifle in the Axis II Precision and may stay with that or may upgrade, again to early to tell. I started this post to draw on the experience of many other shooters who’ve been reloading for accuracy beyond “good enough” hunting loads.
I achieved, what I thought was excellent accuracy with the 3-shot initial, first time out, holy cow does this rifle and load combo work well, and then degraded from there with 10 shots. But I realized some of the changes, didn’t stay as calm as the first time pulling the trigger, who needs to worry about wind at 100yds (appears I do need to worry), etc.
If I remove the gun and shooter (myself) out of the equation, the other main element is developing a consistent, repeatable load and that is what I’m trying to achieve. I realize this is simplifying the discipline, but I am starting from where I’m at today and want to keep getting more accuracy and also become more competitive.
For rimfire, I’m working with 2 rifles and going through many brands of ammo to determine which rifle likes which and in the end I will boil it down to one rifle. For the .243, I have a beginners rifle in the Axis II Precision and may stay with that or may upgrade, again to early to tell. I started this post to draw on the experience of many other shooters who’ve been reloading for accuracy beyond “good enough” hunting loads.
I achieved, what I thought was excellent accuracy with the 3-shot initial, first time out, holy cow does this rifle and load combo work well, and then degraded from there with 10 shots. But I realized some of the changes, didn’t stay as calm as the first time pulling the trigger, who needs to worry about wind at 100yds (appears I do need to worry), etc.
If I remove the gun and shooter (myself) out of the equation, the other main element is developing a consistent, repeatable load and that is what I’m trying to achieve. I realize this is simplifying the discipline, but I am starting from where I’m at today and want to keep getting more accuracy and also become more competitive.
So most folks conduct initial load development at 100y/m for a couple of reasons. It is both convenient and it minimizes the effects of the environment for centerfire.
As I remember you indicated that your first couple of 3 shot groups were .49 then a little less than that and then on the second day your 10 shots groups larger or worse as you said. I would suggest that your 3 shot groups on the first day were simply too small a sample size to really know the capabilities of the load and on the second day with a larger sample size your results were more realistic.
Th real question is how much precision do you need at this stage. My standing advice to newer folks who tell me they have developed and honest to goodness. .49or even a 1 MOA load is to stop there take the win, load a bunch and go practice. Ideally find a mentor that has some experience and can look at your fundamentals, help you with them as required to achieve real consistency in your shooting at a 100m and then start increasing your distance and start to learn how to judge wind.
I guess my point is that I think it unlikely that the problem with your load is whether the shoulder is bumped .001 or .003.
Welcome to the sport it is addictive.
I don't agree with longbow in the sense that he over emphasizes the importance of fundamentals... as my eyes roll. I mean this is a gun forum... If you are a total newb, then yes. You cannot have bad habits, fear of flinching and dont hold your head on the gun... obviously bad habits. I'm assuming you don't suffer from obviously bad shooting skills.
But to shoot at extended distances, you need to learn about calculating trajectory, understanding how to estimate wind and its affect from different directions, mirage, brightness of light etc.
I never ever think about fundamentals, and never blame fundamentals for any miss. It's always always something I missed on ballistics or a wind call.
If you are totally new, then yes you need to learn how to fire the rifle, but for most they get through that fairly quickly. After that, for long range its mostly atmospherics... Within the limits of your rifle and ammo and that whole rabbit hole.
But to shoot at extended distances, you need to learn about calculating trajectory, understanding how to estimate wind and its affect from different directions, mirage, brightness of light etc.
I never ever think about fundamentals, and never blame fundamentals for any miss. It's always always something I missed on ballistics or a wind call.
If you are totally new, then yes you need to learn how to fire the rifle, but for most they get through that fairly quickly. After that, for long range its mostly atmospherics... Within the limits of your rifle and ammo and that whole rabbit hole.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The best thing you can do right now is spin on a quality match barrel and you will enjoy consistent, repeatable and sustainable accuracy.... until the action slows you down.
Simple test.... take 10rds of your best load and shoot them 10 secs apart... and PLOT where every shot lands. I bet the group expands the more rds you put into the pipe.
Having shot many factory barrels, I can tell you that precious few didn't warp when they heated up.... in fact, most will warp in a predictable and repeatable pattern... and that is never to make groups smaller.
If you want to shoot 10rds strings, either do it in the middle of winter or get a new barrel on there. I used to be a huge Savage 10/110 fan... not so much these days BUT have spent enough time with the Axis to know, this is not a precision action... or at least one, that is not likely to last.
You do not need to spend alot of money to get dead reliable, accurate performance....a number of factory actions can and will do it for you. The Savage Axis is not one of them.
A std shank Savage prefit will fit in this action so you can move it to another Savage compatible action if you tire of the Axis.
1 thou shoulder bump is not your answer... in fact, in an action like that, a great way to create a range of addn problems.
Jerry
Well quite a journey but I think we are approaching the destination
Jerry the gear(specifically the enablers to achieve the precision required)
Myself the person(or as Maple believes my over emphasis on the fundamentals).
Maple the science and some time black art of wind and external ballistics
So OP, there you have it from three different people addressing separate but critical parts of the holy trinity of long range rifle shooting.
I view them as a pyramid built in the order I listed them.
Jerry's advice is certainly sound to confirm that you can even achieve what you desire with the kit you have. I might add that if you have someone else who is a proven good shot, shoot your rifle there is no shame in that. I will often have my brother confirm what I think is happening, both good and bad.
The fun never ends
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waynewjw
CGN Regular
All of this is good advice. I think I’ll start with wind call and ballistics to begin with. and I’m not there yet to upgrade barrel, action, etc. One of my fellow shooters builds rifles so I would defer to him as to what action, barrel and chassis would be the best. Need to sell more stuff 1st before I go down that rabbit hole. And here I thought that a small shoulder bump would make me a contender LOL.
Having consistent ammunition will never hurt you, so it's certainly worthwhile making the best ammo that you can.
I've found that one pastime feeds another when it comes to reloading and shooting.
I definitely spend more time developing different loads than I do competing with them. That's more true than ever in today's climate of powder, primer and bullet shortages.
When I run out of one item, I start to develop a load using another.
If you like the process, reloading and load development isn't a bad rabbit hole to go down.
I've found that one pastime feeds another when it comes to reloading and shooting.
I definitely spend more time developing different loads than I do competing with them. That's more true than ever in today's climate of powder, primer and bullet shortages.
When I run out of one item, I start to develop a load using another.
If you like the process, reloading and load development isn't a bad rabbit hole to go down.
1970 at the smallbore Nats we had to cancel the match for a day because the wind and rain were blowing the targets off the back boards. hardly a regular occurrence though.
ONE TIME you can remember no wind or changing light?
I would not want to bet on that happening in a match.....
Cat
Laughed at a fella Cortina was interviewing, " I do 20 different things in the course of reloading a round, I could probably stop doing 10 of them, but, I don't know which 10 to drop". He has a pretty valid, and somewhat ironic point there, the further you get into the rabbit hole, the more miniscule things you'll hear and wonder about.
I would submit that there is nothing more perfectly suited to your rifle than a twice fired piece of brass.
Anything you do to that piece of brass after it has been twice fired is to your detriment.
To minimize the need to manipulate your brass after firing requires that you neck turn and run a tight neck in the chamber with minimal clearances.
Then when you do any neck sizing or shoulder bumping it should be kept to a minimum.
If you are over zealous in your sizing efforts, the case will deviate farther from the chamber ideal and that increases the amount of energy that will be lost to blowing the brass back out to the side walls of the chamber. It also affects the alignment of all things which also affect both accuracy and the consistency of your velocity.
These are simple mechanical facts that are self evident.
If you don't have a rifle that is chambered in such a way then just try and replicate the basic principle as closely as you can.
Anything you do to that piece of brass after it has been twice fired is to your detriment.
To minimize the need to manipulate your brass after firing requires that you neck turn and run a tight neck in the chamber with minimal clearances.
Then when you do any neck sizing or shoulder bumping it should be kept to a minimum.
If you are over zealous in your sizing efforts, the case will deviate farther from the chamber ideal and that increases the amount of energy that will be lost to blowing the brass back out to the side walls of the chamber. It also affects the alignment of all things which also affect both accuracy and the consistency of your velocity.
These are simple mechanical facts that are self evident.
If you don't have a rifle that is chambered in such a way then just try and replicate the basic principle as closely as you can.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
the wind reading book by Miller and Cunningham. If you don't already have it, get it asap.
Then learn the concept of centering a group. The biggest hurdle with an unstable barrel is the confusion it will cause wrt to learning how to overcome conditions. Chasing a condition that isn't there because your barrel has launched a shot into the weeds is both frustrating and incredibly expensive.
Doubt is the most expensive handicap you can put into your shooting.
How much will it cost having to rebuild the lack of confidence in your skills/understanding?
How do you know if your fundamentals are working? How do you know if your wind call makes sense?
If you truly want to learn.... LEARN! and that starts with gear that will help you on your journey... not impede it.
Doesn't have to cost alot of money to get reliable, accurate and stable gear.
YMMV
Jerry
