38 cal Merwin Hulberts no longer antiques

As far as I'm concerned, if a fellow has a letter from the CFC stating that his ancient pistol is an antique (complete with serial number), then it's an antique regardless of what new secret rules are being made behind closed doors. And if a fellow happens to be checked, he produces the letter, which should accompany the antique, and everything will be fine. Who can argue with a letter straight from CFC?

Regarding the discussion of whether an antique handgun was used in a crime, I have no knowledge of such (which means nothing, given my modest store of facts, which are half corrupted anyway), but I did see on the news and in the newspaper where they busted some guy in Toronto who had kiddie #### on his computer and confiscated an original S&W New Model #3 (or was it the first model DA?) new frontier in 44-40. Of course the 44-40 caliber meant it was not an antique. They found no ammo, but of course the police had a huge photo of the ancient gun they found in the fellow's house and the citizens of Toronto slept a little more soundly that night, sure that the lives of thousands had just been saved.
 
dingus said:
The tecs at CFC have to Review the 38 M&H CFC letters sent out because of some info they came accross that states that sure the company made there own ammo 38 M&H but knew 38 S&W ammo would chamber and shoot in there Firearms they were selling accross the US at the time of manufacture.
So they really are NO longer Antiques! No more Letters on the 38 M&H
So its not that they just dont like Sportee LOL

Also they are NOT looking at any other Calibers.
But that they could Review any or all Antique Status letters at any time.
Thats what i was told today!

I brought this subject up a couple months ago but most said it couldnt happen.
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Somehow you always manage to get more info out of those guys than i can. So the question now is if they are/were reviewing the antique letters for the 38MH's then what happens with all the leters that have already been mailed out? another 12(?)? or are they all required to be registered now?
 
Mailing letters out to those who have the antique status letters could be a problem .... I no longer have all the antique handguns that I received letters for ..... guns get bought, sold and traded.
 
As far as I'm concerned, if a fellow has a letter from the CFC stating that his ancient pistol is an antique (complete with serial number), then it's an antique regardless of what new secret rules are being made behind closed doors
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Kirk, I respectfully disagree, an antique is an antique as defiend by the regulations not by a letter. Not having a piece of paper on file in ottawa does not mean my antiques are'nt antiques. I understand the precautionary nature of having the CFC letter but unless you are a minor or under a firearms prohibition YOU DO NOT NEED ANYONE'S PERMISSION TO POSSESS AN ANTIQUE.
The CFC letter is handy for the border (but not required) and it may save you some hassle with a gun ignorant rookie but it is not required.
If a cop question the validity of your antique most show up in the FRT as Antique so he can check there. If he wants to sieze it your letter is not going to stop him.
Remember these letters are freely given, not out of the CFC's goodness but as a way of registering antiques.

When I decide which antique to sell next the lettered ones always come to the top of the pile. As such I don't have any of the Antiques I got letters for. I sold them all to people who showed me a PAL.
 
sportee said:
Somehow you always manage to get more info out of those guys than i can. So the question now is if they are/were reviewing the antique letters for the 38MH's then what happens with all the leters that have already been mailed out? another 12(?)? or are they all required to be registered now?
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If i had one id just keep it and enjoy it. :D

Like David says its Antique because its Antique not because of the CFC letter.
The guns a Antique still in my Eyes BECAUSE its a 38 M&H Calibered gun!and thats not on the NO list of Calibers.

If they can show where it says that M&H Were chambered in 38 M&H and 38 S&W id like to see that.
There still two diffrent chamberings.
IF they Add 38 M&H to the list AFTER Deregistering guns in that Caliber thats gona make them look kinda stupid isnt it.
I personaly think they just wont deregister any more Registered ones.
If ya have one already with no registeration i would not try and DO anything with it but enjoy it.

All i was doing was Telling you guys what CFC tecs said!!!
NOT That i agreed with em. ;)
 
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I agree that one does not need one of those antique letters, but it does speed things up when importing from the USA. What I'm not clear on is the practical application of this new rule. If no letters are sent out to those who acquired an antique letter, then I would assume there is some grandfathering going on.

I have a technical question: Does a 38 S&W chamber in a 38 M&H?

I think they (CFC) are going about this all wrong. The antique status should be determined strictly by date not by caliber.
 
Win 38-55 said:
I agree that one does not need one of those antique letters, but it does speed things up when importing from the USA. What I'm not clear on is the practical application of this new rule. If no letters are sent out to those who acquired an antique letter, then I would assume there is some grandfathering going on.

I have a technical question: Does a 38 S&W chamber in a 38 M&H?

I think they (CFC) are going about this all wrong. The antique status should be determined strictly by date not by caliber. It is the scarcity of old guns that were made before 1898 and their price that makes antique handguns, not their caliber.
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YES 38 S&W fits in a 38 M&H very nice!

I agree they should just make all guns pre 1899 Antique and be done with the caliber list.
Its So Fricken Stupid!!!! I can have a pistol as antique that can shoot a 50 70 cartridge but no 38 M&H
It would be easyer thats for sure but its the Goverment Kirk ;) they never do anything smart or easy!
If its based on available Cartridges when was the last time you seen a box of 45 Colt around or 44 40.
Theres NO reason for either of thos calibers to be on some No list.
 
I don't know maybe they are right 38 M&H just sounds evil don't it. LOL

Maybe they are designing a new calibre list based on Initials contain 2 consonants and imperial designations divisable by 2. 32, 38, 44, SW, MH, LC,SC

That works: all calibres with two consonant or divisable by 2 are now on the no list.

Stock up ont he 8.3x27.5Rs, 11mm ordannance revolvers, and .455s!
 
There are no posted changes at the CFC web site www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca look under facts sheets . I do not believe that they have to send out letters they have been doing it on request of individuals and Verifiers . But you don't need a letter it will make it easier if you get asked for a registration cert. or transport permit on your out to the range when you get stopped for speeding etc.I also looked at the firearms act and can see no amendments.
 
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MAC10 said:
How is getting a letter from the CFC certifying antique status different than registration? They have the gun's details on file, connected to your name, and can look it up as they see fit. Bureaucracies work like that, especially CFC. Good luck with the " antique gun does not need to be registered" idea.
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There is an important difference. With registered firearms, you must inform CFC if you sell the firearm to someone else (indeed, you must have a transfer) and, second, you must inform them if you move so that they can keep track of where the gun is located. With an antique letter from CFC, you can sell that antique pistol to whoever, whenever with no notification to CFC. As a result, if they were using the letter data base to keep track of who had what, it might be fairly accurate if the letter was issued in the last 7 days (even then, antiques change hands), but the accuracy of that database would deteriorate badly with each passing month. They have problem enough keeping track of the registered firearms, forget about keeping track of the antiques. If they came looking for your registered firearms down the road and you didn't have them, you'd be on the hook. Not so with antiques. You have no legal obligation to keep them informed as to where that antique went, or who it was sold to, or when you sold it. Essentially, a CFC database on who has what antiques is essentially worthless as an accurate database.
 
Also its nice to have a RCMP Letter that States your Make model and Ser# of the gun you have and it says in that letter NO lic or Reg needed.

In Case a cop not up on Antiques stops you for some reason and finds it and asks for your Permits Lic all that other crap you need for a modern Handgun just to go from the house to the Range!

*Oh ya Officer thats a Antique no worries i need NO lic for that!*

The Cops just gona nod his head in agreement and let on your merry way....NOT

Thats why i like the RCMP letters.
 
Unless you are going to keep you antique in the house all the time, I do recommend that letter from CFC. Nothing beats that letter when questions are raised. I have personally brought a couple different antique sixguns through customs. With that letter in hand, there are no questions asked. Also, as Dingus mentioned, if for some reason a police officer stops you and finds out you have a antique handgun, and you have that letter in your possession, you will be covered (provided your antique handgun is in a locked case as per antique handgun transport regs). I always have a copy of that letter on me if I'm taking my antique anywhere off the premises. I use all due discretion (i.e., I'm not flashing it around), but I like to be prepared.
 
As long as your antique handgun is transported legaly, in a locked, opaque case a LEO has no business 'finding' it. When it is locked that way you have an expectation of privacy, don't tell them what is in the case. Catch 22 with the locked case laws.
BTW I'm no lawyer...
 
It is my understanding that Smokepole is correct. An officer must have some reasonable grounds that can be articulated and defended in court, before he/she can take the locked case. Nevertheless, a CFC letter stating it is an antique is a good thing to have inside that case if the situation does not go your way. One is not required to have a trigger lock on the antique when transporting it and I do not put one on. If there happens to be an officer at the range, even if off duty, who sees you pull it out of the locked case, or put it in, without a trigger lock, then he has reasonable grounds if he does not know that it is an antique. You can tell him that it is an antique, but he's heard so many dirtbags lie that what you verbally say may not be sufficient to overturn his reasonable grounds (i.e., his observation that you put your handgun in a case without first installing a trigger lock, as required for restricted firearms). A letter certainly would be sufficient to take care of the situation. If you pack your sixgun in remote wilderness areas, a letter is a good thing to have (not that you're likely to ever run into anyone in the wilderness). If CFC ever came wondering where my antiques are (i.e., they treated the info in their antique letter as a 'registration'), I could honestly and sincerely tell them that I've bought and sold antiques with no legal requirement to inform them, so their records are, unfortunately, out of date. I need tell them nothing more.

1. I have obtained CFC letters confirming antique status for antique handguns that I did not possess (they are a free service which I take advantage of when it suits me to do so)
2. I have not informed, nor do I have to, CFC when I have sold antique handguns for which I had a CFC letter confirming antique status.

Bottom Line: An antique letter cannot constitute evidence that you ever possessed that handgun, or that you still have it, but it is sweet ticket to have when I need it, either to clear customs, or to satisfy a LEO.
 
LOL exactly Kirk i must have 100 CFC letters on guns i never ended up Buying.

There gona be some dissapointed if they ever come to look at all my guns :D
 
I just had a chat with a CFO . 38 M&H has not been added to the no go list for antiques. The caliber list is legislation and cannot be changed by the RCMP or the Registry. What I believe they are saying to Sportee is that they have proof that the pistol he was trying to get a letter for was made to take 38 M&H and 38 s&w or long colt or something .
 
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