WK180C Gen 2 or something else?
- Thread starter CUSTOM441
- Start date
I have an SE.
I speaking layman, so people will understand taking responsibility for maintaining their machines.
You're showing everone on here how you introject your own misunderstanding of the point.
Oh no, the marxist will shun me. LOL
Pesonal attacks, instead of debating against my statements, is maxist crap, right out of rules for radicals.
Please specify how I am not using logic? Bet you can't. Bet you will use another tactic of the maxist playbooks.
Last edited:
I'd agree with others.. the point went a sailin' by.
For the record, I take good care of my stuff. Having said that, I am not interested in spending my money on a new rifle who's proper functionality requires me to take it apart, fix it, and put it back together again. If that's your MO, then you do you. Sounds like trust issues and/or OCD to me.
Folks in this thread aren't suggesting that a quality rifle removes the requirement of maintenance. They're saying something new should be reliable out of the box, no questions asked.
Rules for life:
- Buy Once, Cry Once
- Look after your sh*t
Thanks for the suggestion, but not looking for a 7.62
Non-phixion
CGN frequent flyer
Buying garbage rods is a marxist trait, shilling for them is too.
Says you.
From what I’m gathering from OP is he’s looking to spend what he got from his AR plus 5-600 maybe. As he wants to be able to reuse components he’s stripped from it. All the guns people are recommending are all great and reliable but come with hefty price tags compared to his budget, cheapest being $2400 for x95’s and HK sl8, $2700 for R18, $3100 for bren2 and B&T and acr’s from 4-5k. Only one outta those is the R18 that can possibly use his components. It’s fine to say save up and buy better but in these times it’s not always possible for most people. You have cash in hand and you gotta spend it now or it evaporates into your bills or groceries. OP’s choices for AR style are fairly limited these days with the Mcr or wk in his price range or wait 6-8 months for other people to get the BCL, test it, review it on here and in that time who knows what the government will do.
A used WS-MCR that has been upgraded with the Spectre Ltd AR15-style Lower Receiver would probably be ideal given the OP's stated budgetary limitations. Although not fully cross-compatible, it would still be possible to use some AR15 components such as Optics, BUIS, Pistol Grip, (possibly) Buttstock, Magazines, MLOC Rails, VFG, Weapon Light, Sling, etc. That my just be the closest that he can get and the best that he can do under the circumstances. Not a terrible option, just heavy with a few sharp edges/corners on the MCR Upper Receiver to avoid. Otherwise, it should be accurate and reliable if my own MCR was representative of the breed.
I appreciate the last two comments. Ideally yeah, I'd like to take the AR cheque to a gunstore and swap it for something that fits the bill. That said, ≤$2k is a fair assessment.
Apples to apples, how does the WS-MCR stack up? I'm intrigued...
Apples to apples, how does the WS-MCR stack up? I'm intrigued...
Both platforms you’ll have guys that love em and hate em. Some have issues, some don’t. Main one for wk’s is the gas reg nut comes loose, gives it too much gas and snaps rods. Loctite (Blue) and torque the nut real good and your good to go. Might not hurt to do the handguard screws also. I’ve heard kodiak’s warranty is pretty good. Something happens, e-mail em and most likely you’ll have a part in mail same day. Free of charge. Even after warranty ends they’ll help. As for the MCR I don’t know much about that one or the issues it’s had but I know it’s had some. Bartok5 can maybe shed light on it as he’s owned one.
Well, actually $2K is a different story than I was thinking. While the upgraded WS-MCR would be a decent performer, $2k puts you within financial range of the new Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms "Templar", which is essentially an evolved WS-MCR. This is a definite upgrade to the basic WS-MCR, which while I owned mine, was a reliable enough performer. The Templar takes the WS-MCR's AR180 operating system to the next level with a thicker Piston to negate breakage, a beefier Bolt Carrie to ensure Bolt closure into battery, a proprietary Bolt Catch/Release Lever, a monolithic Upper Receiver, improved Lower Receiver styling, a self-regulating Gas Sytstem, a more ergonomic (and aesthetic) ACR-style Buttstock, and so on and so forth. I would highly recommend stepping up to the Templar at a n MSRP of exactly $2000 for the model with a mil-spec Trigger. You can always upgrade to the match Trigger of your choosing later on when additioinal funds become available, but $2K nets you the basic new platform. This is definitlely the route that I would go.
Last edited:
Thanks! The Templar definitely seems like a good option at the top of my budget. Just curious what issues (if any) did you have with your MCR?
I did not have any mechanical issues with my MCR once I installed an Adjustable Gas Block. Prior to that I was encountering occasional failures to eject and to lock back on the last round.
My only other disappointment with the MCR had to do with the many sharp edges and corners on the firearm, particularly where (or near where) the firearm is held. This is why I recommended that the updated Lower Receiver be mated with the MCR Upper for a complete firearm that is suitable for use.
You will have no such issues with the Templar!
I'm pretty sure there are uppers and lowers available. The least expensive route would be to build a WK180 from the parts stripped from an AR.
Not quite.
The set screws that retain the gasblock back out causing the gasblock to come loose pushing it up and possibly rotating it slightly. This allows it to rotate out of alignment with the pistol hole on the upper receiver causing the piston to bend and snap. This has somewhat been fixed by adding a snap ring to the front of the gasblock that sits in a recess in the barrel, preventing the gasblock from moving forward.
You'd be saving the cost of a barrel (if your AR is running a carbine length gas system), a fire control group, and a pistol grip and buttstock. Maybe a handguard if your AR is running a freefloat.
Realistically seeing as these are 850-1100 on the used market, by the time you're done piecing together parts from TNA I'm betting you'll be more expensive than buying a used one, and you still have to dimple the barrel and add a slot for the snapring, which will require a machinist if you're rather inept with tools.
Non-phixion
CGN frequent flyer
I'm sorry Bartok but why are you recommending an unproven gun with a thread already going about how it came to the owner looking like #### with furniture that isn't advertised? At least wait and see if these can even make 10000 rounds before they eat themselves alive. Hopefully the Crusaders don't suck but so far its not looking promising...
I am recommending the Templar because:
1. Despite your contention to the contrary, the Templar is not a "new design" whatsoever. First, it is a facsimile of the AR180, which is a well-proven short-stroke piston design with a Bolt Carrier riding on 2 Steel Rods with independent Operating Springs. Second, it is a direct evolution of the WS-MCR (note the identical steel Cam Track plate on the Left Side of the Upper Receiver), which is another proven design based on the AR180. So to say that the Templar is a "new design" is plain disingenuous.
2. It (barely) fits within the OP's budget, thereby getting him the most rifle that he can currently afford at $2K on the button. He can always upgrade the Trigger on the Templar using something on-hand, or the match Trigger of the OP's choice later on.
3. I bought one based on the videos because I was curious and because quite frankly, I've run out of other black rifles to buy. Having now had the opportunity to examine the Templar in minute detail for several days, I am convinced that it is well-constructed and robust.
4. As my results today bear out, the Templar is good to go in terms of both reliabiilty and accuracy. At least insofar as I was able to ascertain based on a modest selection (4 types) and quantity (3oo rounds) of ammunnition. I predicted that the rifle would be reliable in the Templar thread, based on the claimed no-clean, no stoppage round-count (2000) at Triggercon 2022. I also predicted that the rifle would shoot reasonably well based on it sharing the same Barrel orofile as the SAI R18 Mk2. The results today speak for themselves. <1.5 MOA with 69gr Match ammo and <2 MOA with bulk Aguilla 55 gr fodder. I am satisified after today that I have recommended a sound choice among the various Canadian AR180 derivatives. I have no more hesitation in recommendiing the Templar than I do the SAI R18 Mk 2. The prospective buyer just needs to read the Templar Thread and be aware of the areas for improvement that I noted in my Range Report today.
If the above doesn't provide adequate reason to purchase a Templar, then there's likely nothing that I can say to convince you that it is good to go. Sure, there are things that can still be tweaked on the Templar - there are always things that can be tweaked. But does it run and shoot with reasonable accuracy? Yes, it does. By all accounts from Triggercon, it will go severall thousand rounds with nothing but lubricant. As of today I know for a personal fact that it will print sub-2 MOA 5-round groups with bulk 55 gr Aguilla and without stoppages, all day long. So what's not to like? What about the Templar's design remains unproven or untried or untested? Besides of course, your vaunted 10K extended round-count, of course. Sorry, but I don't have the cash, carrying capacity or hours in the day to shoot that amount of ammo before giving my recommendation!
As for whether the Templar ships with an A2 Pistol Grip or something else, I couldn't care less. All of my rifles and carbines get upgraded to either an Ergo Grip or a Magpul MOE K2 right out of the gate regardless. My Templar shipped with an A2 Pistol Grip, which I suspect is the factory standard. If it's good enough for the Big Green Machine it ought to be good enough for us plebs, right?
Last edited:
Non-phixion
CGN frequent flyer
You can talk the design till your blue in the face but i'm referring to the execution of said design, in theory anything built off a 180 shouldn't suck. Yet there are enough threads on this board that are on the contrary, which is why I hold my reservations. Like I said I hope the crusader works out, but if I was the OP I would sacrifice buying right now and save up more to get into an X95 or find a modern sporter set.
The X95 is outside of the OP's budget unless he buys used and can find a smoking deal under $2K. I get the impression that he wants to buy now, not at some undertermined time in the future whan he may or may not have saved enough for an X95. Again, a Modern Sporter receiver set and the high-end parts to finish the build would cost the OP far more than the $2K he currently has available. Even if he went with econo parts on the ATRS receiver set (blasphemy!), he'd still be way over budget!
I personally wouldn't touch a MS receiver set with a 10' pole until such time as the ATRS Lawsuit is settled in their favour, or the FRT is acknowledged by the Registrar as lacking the force of law for the purpose of firearms classification. Until that happens, it would be a dodgy recommendation indeed....
What is wrong with the EXECUTION of the Spectre Ltd/Crusdader Arms Templar? Have you even read the Templar thread? Not the #####-fest that followed one guy getting a scratched rifle from the factory, but the other thread? The Crusader Templar has already "worked out". Indeed, it is working out just fine! I fired mine today and aside from one light primer strike, it ate 300 rounds of mixed ammo and consistently put 5 rounds of bulk 55 gr Aguilla into less than 2" at 100 yds.
I received my Templar 6 days ago. I have studied every millimeter of the rifle from stem to stern and back again, inside and out. After 35 years of collecting and evaluating modern military firearms, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking at, and can usually tell what will and what won't function reliably with a reasonable degree of accuracy. I would never claim to be an expert in any field, but 34 years of infantry soldiering likewise taught me a thing or two about military small arms and their respective designs. I would never make a recommendation without first validating my performance expectations with live accuracy and reliability testing. I have only scratched the surface insofar as reliability testing is concerned, however Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms has at least one high round-count rifle that fired 2000 rounds without cleaning at Triggercon 2022 in the USA. That is a pretty solid performance by any standard!
As far as Accuracy is concerned, there are no concerns - the Templar shoots as well as the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk2. In fact, having now shot both rifles head-to-head I can tell you that the Monolithic Upper Receiver of the Templar out-shot the SAI R18 by a very slight (but perceptible) margin. You can expect to fire bulk 55 gr 5.56mm ammo into sub-2" 5-round groups at 100m all day long. That is more than acceptable performance for a utility rifle like the Templar.
I'm calling it now. Notwithstanding the list of improvements that I hope to see Spectre/crusader make to the Templar in the near future (see the Templar thread), the rifle as currently configured is solid right out of the box. I highly recommend the Trigger Tech upgrade at the time of purchase (saving yourself $30 on the price of a unit) as the Trigger is crucial to accuracy and the Trigger Tech is a phenomenal unit. Aside from that key factory upgrade, there is not a lot that the new owner needs to do or add to the Templar in order to make it range-ready. I have added a few enhancements to my own Templar, but those are the same mods that I perform to most of my black rifles. If the rifle uses AR take-down pins, I replace them with the Yankee Hill EZ-Pull set which greatly eases the disassembly process. I like to add a Troy industries Ambidextrous Magazine Release and Magpul grips. And an Extended Magazine Release button. And so on and so forth. The optic is a Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10X Low-Power Variable Optic (LPVO).
Last edited:
