Box lock vs side lock

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brybenn

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Knowing the extremely numerous variables involved will in deed be mentioned here I'm going to ask anyway as a matter of discussion. If you had "X" amount of dollars to buy a higher end or best grade double on the used market today would you get more gun for value going boxlock over sidelock? Names aside as the purpose of this gun will be hunting and the focus is on quality per dollar. Is a London made boxlock a better buy than a similar priced london sidelock? Can one get more gun value say buying a best Spanish sidelock over a best London boxlock?
"x" can be any dollar amount knowing that good quality doubles are not cheap and sidelocks are generally more expensive than boxlocks. Even when bracketed into groups by amount $2000/5000/7500/10000 does it hold true or is there a point where quality ends and other factors such as name and location become the driving force?

The gun will be used for upland birds and small game built as a game gun. Straight English stock dual triggers fixed chokes. Balance handling and quality build are of the most important factors.
 
First watch this….


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtDzjJwES0A


Two well known Brits discussing boxlocks and acknowledging the real reasons why boxlocks typically have to ride in the back seat.


As you know, I have both, including an example of the pinnacle of London Best. Right now, there is no question. You will get more bang for the buck by targeting a Birmingham or other (non London) boxlock. At the same time, typically, you will again get more value for your dollar by targeting a well made Continental gun rather than an English gun. I think you have enough experience and knowledge to judge properly whether the original quality of a gun is where yiu want it and I know you can judge current condition.

BTW there are effectively no London boxlocks. The ones you do see were made in Birmingham, perhaps finished in London, and labeled with a London maker’s name.

Right now I have two makers that I am targeting. Have a close look at anything from them that I find in the NA market. One is a boxlock. The other is a sidelock. Neither are from England.
 
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I have been hunting upland exclusively with English stocked, twin trigger SxS shotguns for about the past 6 years or so, and I have come to prefer the better made Spanish sidelocks. I started off with a pair of AYA#2 shotguns, but I came across some great deals on used Grullas, that fit me pretty much perfectly, so I sold the AYAs, and now shoot Grulla. I have looked at some English made guns, and some boxlocks, but based on fit and finish, and overall quality, I think that the Spanish made sidelocks offer more value for the price. I have also come to prefer IC/IM chokes, over the more common IC/M combination.
 
Correct about Birmingham guns being finished by other makers but I'm under the impression that those imported actions in the white where ordered to a better spec with regards to materials and tolerances.
I've found I much prefer the traditional game gun lines of British and their Spanish copies over American built guns. I have not had a vast experience with others such as German made guns and others of the like. Canvasback you have a great collection of fine sxs guns and the others that show theirs at the classic each year is a real eye opener.
I absolutely love my JD Dougal sidelever and I do hunt with it but it holds an incredible amount of sentimental value that I find I'm only using it on preferred days and select hunts. I have a good stash of sxs guns but I'm trying to decrease the number and up the quality and let's face it I'd rather miss with a nice gun than a step up from a hardware store brand
The AyA #2 and xxv sle have long been favorites of mine and I'd love to acquire a sample of each but by watching videos of Holt's and the boxlocks often shown has led me to wonder if my money couldn't be better spent on a boxlock. I've fired several original Webley and Scott 700 models and liked them very much as well and their actions were bought by many big names and finished in their respective houses which speaks to the soundness of the design and reliability.
Also I'm not afraid of short chambers or Damascus barrels either so that opens even more confusion in trying to narrow down which direction to go. I do know I'll get more gun in 12ga than a subgauges for my dollar so I'm looking only at 12s for the time being. Plus I already load 2" and 2.5" black powder and nitro loads for a couple old hammer guns I own
 
Bry, you start this with a leg or two up. You already know a fair bit AND you reload. So nothing is really off the table. I might suggest that you come at it from a slightly different perspective. You have an idea of what you might spend if the right gun came along. So take the limitations off and look at everything in that price range. Newer, older, British, Spanish, Belgian, box lock, sidelock, trigger plate, extensively adorned, relatively plain light, heavy, long barreled, short etc. You get my drift. Then allow yourself to notice which ones you are coming back to.

We’ve talked about this before. I’m not a “collector”. I just like to have a bunch of guns I hunt with. And my choices over the years probably might seem a little strange if one were trying to make sense of them. It’s because I have one overriding condition before I buy a gun. I have to love it. Doesn’t matter why I love it, I just have to. It means I haven’t regretted a single purchase although I do regret some sales. It means I have quite a variety because any gun could be one I love.

You are a good shot and you pay attention to that aspect in a gun. It has to work for you in a certain way. Fit. Handling. Those have to be right. The best thing you could do, IMHO, is start the search but wait until after the next SxS shoot before you buy. And come prepared to handle and possibly shoot, the widest variety of better guns that you can. See if you can narrow down the criteria of what you need. Odds are you will get it wrong with your first stab at it. So unless your bank account got a sudden influx of spare cash, be ready for the idea that it needs to go down the road because 24 months from now you’ve found a better one.

It’s taken me 18 years to assemble the group I have. And really, the only thing I’ve learned is I never regret buying quality. NEVER!
 
"The gun will be used for upland birds and small game built as a game gun. Straight English stock dual triggers fixed chokes. Balance handling and quality build are of the most important factors."

Same configurations as my Rizzini BR550 Round Body 28ga/32ga and AyA #2 Deluxe 28ga.
All with fixed CYL/IC
The Rizzini BR550 is described as a boxlock, but I would call it a trigger plate.

As Cavnasback said look at the TGS video.
And "you will again get more value for your dollar by targeting a well made Continental gun"

The Rizzini is about ⅓ the cost of the AyA.
And I like it just as much, with nice wood, balance and clean barrel lines - Piano Fisso.
And shoot it just as well.
So the BR550 is better value to me.
And I also like them both.
 
I don't have enough knowledge to add anything of value. But I will say that a high quality boxlock trumps a mediocre sidelock for me. Fancy does not impress me, but high grade wood and case colouring sure do. All else being equal, I'd also opt for an extractor gun - no need for the cost and potential issues of an ejector gun for anything other than high volume driven shooting.

That recent TGS Outdoors boxlock video is top drawer. Johnny's channel is a fantastic source of information and entertainment for double gun enthusiasts.
 
The Baron said:
That recent TGS Outdoors boxlock video is top drawer. Johnny's channel is a fantastic source of information and entertainment for double gun enthusiasts.
Click to expand...

:agree:

Every so often I browse the auctions of Holts... and wish there was a cheaper way to bring some of these doubles across the pond!

-=-=-

As far as sideock VS boxlock go... all things being equal (fit/finish/balance) I'd like a sidelock, if for no other reason than it offers more space for scrollwork... than again, I'd also like a Darne (whichever type of lock it has) :p
 
sillymike said:
:agree:

Every so often I browse the auctions of Holts... and wish there was a cheaper way to bring some of these doubles across the pond!

-=-=-

As far as sideock VS boxlock go... all things being equal (fit/finish/balance) I'd like a sidelock, if for no other reason than it offers more space for scrollwork... than again, I'd also like a Darne (whichever type of lock it has) :p
Click to expand...

Sliding breech. I had a Charlin ( very similar action although smoother) and loved the build quality, balance and handling but I just couldn’t get used to hunting with a double that wouldn’t break open no matter how hard I tried - and I did try many times.
 
Ashcroft said:
Sliding breech. I had a Charlin ( very similar action although smoother) and loved the build quality, balance and handling but I just couldn’t get used to hunting with a double that wouldn’t break open no matter how hard I tried - and I did try many times.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction Jim. Brain fart this morning. lol
 
Back action sidelock has the greatest visual appeal to me and I do enjoy a slender straight stock. I'm not really in the market right now as I recently purchased a new sxs and now another new Beretta but I'm always looking ahead. I figure I could be happy with another nice higher quality sxs 12 bore and I'm lacking a sxs in 28ga to complete the set of common gauges. There's no way I'll stop with just 2 but I need to try to stay on track
 
In my experience….generally…
All other factors being equal, sidelocks are a little heavier. Boxlocks can be made lighter
- They balance differently overall. Sidelocks are more centre weighted with a heavier action and tend to be slightly more responsive. Boxlocks tend to be more stable.
- Sidelocks can usually be adjusted for finer trigger pulls.
- Boxlock lock parts are larger and more robust, less prone to breakage.
- Sidelocks have more wood removal at the wrist/ head area and are more fragile there.
- Boxlocks have more metal removed from the action that suggests they are less robust but in fact boxlocks have proven more robust in service and most double rifles are boxlocks for a reason.
- sidelocks are more complex and more difficult to make, resulting in higher prices. This doesn’t mean they are better, only that they are more expensive if made to a similar standard. Because most sidelocks cost more to begin with, they tend to retain that higher price as they age, which many then assume this must be because of higher quality.
There are many variations and quality levels of both sidelocks and boxlocks and because there are far fewer best quality boxlocks to compare, lesser quality boxlocks are often compared to higher grade sidelocks, an unrealistic comparison. Personally I much prefer a best quality of either to a mediocre quality sample of the other.
To me as a staunch traditionalist, the classic slim straight stock coupled with the slender ‘splinter’ type forend just looks right on a side by side. As I prefer double triggers for the ease of selecting the first barrel with the preferred choke, this combination works well while keeping the hands in similar alignment as close to the line of sight as possible. A slight oval or diamond shaped grip such as can be found on many best quality guns is something I always prefer no matter what the stock configuration. I find that the open British style ‘half or semi pistol grip’ that many call the ‘Prince of Wales’ ( as in WALES, the area of Britain, not WHALES, an ocean creature) works very well, especially on small bores and combined with the diamond/oval shape seem to provide me with a little more control. Just doesn’t look quite as elegant though. And don’t get me started on full pistol grips and beavertail forends!
 
Ashcroft said:
In my experience….generally…
All other factors being equal, sidelocks are a little heavier. Boxlocks can be made lighter
- They balance differently overall. Sidelocks are more centre weighted with a heavier action and tend to be slightly more responsive. Boxlocks tend to be more stable.
- Sidelocks can usually be adjusted for finer trigger pulls.
- Boxlock lock parts are larger and more robust, less prone to breakage.
- Sidelocks have more wood removal at the wrist/ head area and are more fragile there.
- Boxlocks have more metal removed from the action that suggests they are less robust but in fact boxlocks have proven more robust in service and most double rifles are boxlocks for a reason.
- sidelocks are more complex and more difficult to make, resulting in higher prices. This doesn’t mean they are better, only that they are more expensive if made to a similar standard. Because most sidelocks cost more to begin with, they tend to retain that higher price as they age, which many then assume this must be because of higher quality.
There are many variations and quality levels of both sidelocks and boxlocks and because there are far fewer best quality boxlocks to compare, lesser quality boxlocks are often compared to higher grade sidelocks, an unrealistic comparison. Personally I much prefer a best quality of either to a mediocre quality sample of the other.
To me as a staunch traditionalist, the classic slim straight stock coupled with the slender ‘splinter’ type forend just looks right on a side by side. As I prefer double triggers for the ease of selecting the first barrel with the preferred choke, this combination works well while keeping the hands in similar alignment as close to the line of sight as possible. A slight oval or diamond shaped grip such as can be found on many best quality guns is something I always prefer no matter what the stock configuration. I find that the open British style ‘half or semi pistol grip’ that many call the ‘Prince of Wales’ ( as in WALES, the area of Britain, not WHALES, an ocean creature) works very well, especially on small bores and combined with the diamond/oval shape seem to provide me with a little more control. Just doesn’t look quite as elegant though. And don’t get me started on full pistol grips and beavertail forends!
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Yes.
 
Hunting in the rain, sleet and snow as I at least used to, I fretted about what might be happening inside my good old Browning BSS afterwards and would crave a sidelock for the simple reason (and quite apart from the admitted snob appeal) that the inner works would be accessible for proper inspection, drying, and oiling.
 
Ashcroft said:
semi pistol grip’ that many call the ‘Prince of Wales’ ( as in WALES, the area of Britain, not WHALES, an ocean creature)
Click to expand...

Well that's funny, even though English isn't my fist language, it never crossed my mind that there could be a princely whale!
- Now I have a silly urge to get a Moby #### theme double!
(Of course a re-purposed Greener Harpoon gun would be more appropriate)
 
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