Black rifle newb, SL-8 or WS-MCR/WX-MCR or something else?..

[D.Pagenkopf]

I did not consider the Crusader 9/Sentinel for 2 reasons - I already own a handful of PCCs that I can still lawfully discharge so the 9mm wasn't necessary, and the 5.56mm Sentinel is a "half-generation" behind the Templar in terms of design - relatively minor things like the aesthetics of the Lower Receiver, the shape of the Charging Handle and so forth.

I opted for the Trigger Tech. So far it is a nice trigger and well worth the upgrade. It totally changes the feel of the rifle and certainly enhances the rifle's practical accuracy.

Certain optic mounts do interfere with accessing the "HK Slap" function of the Charging Handle (CH), but not the normal back and forth travel of the CH itself. When you rotate the CH towards the centreline of the rifle in order to lock the CH in the retention slot for the "HK Slap", you rotate it against the side of your optic mount. making it difficult to access again to release the Bolt Carrier. I have a fairly narrow QD Scope Mount made by Kinetic Development Group (Side-Loc) that works OK with the Templar CH. Other, wider mounts like the American Defense "Recon" exacerbate interference right at the end of the CH's travel, where the optic mount for an LPVO is generally placed.

The beauty of the Templar is the fact that it has a self-regulating Gas Block. This means that you can switch between ammo types and theoretically the rifle will simply "sip" what it needs from each different load to cycle the action. There is plenty of footage in the Sootch Review Video of the Templar going from Muzzle Brake to Suppressed and back and forth without a hiccup. That is a huge testament to the function of the self-regulating Gas Block, as the addition of a conventional (eg; non-flow-through) silencer dumps huge back-pressure into the rifle's operating system, which the Gas Block must vent off to prevert abusive cycling of the action. Conversely, when you take the suppressor off, the rifle still has to function reliably without any of that back-pressure. Again, the Templar functioned reliably both suppressed and unsuppressed., which is a far bigger deal than changing brands of SAAMI-spec ammo.

Got it. I'm in the boat of "I don't have a... (fill in the blank with any semi-auto rifle) ... boat". Trying to make the most informed decision I can.
Noted- trigger for practical accuracy.
Sidebar- "HK Slap" every time I hear that I come back in time to a link an ex Brit soldier sent me of a song called "do the HK slap"... ugh
Got it. Almost need a new slap stick CH offset downwards to ensure a guy can slap it. I'll keep that in mind for optics
Good to know about the self-regulating system. Prior to this all I knew was that the MP5 has a delayed roller blowback system that just made them a dream to shoot (Ex Calgary SWAT guy said he missed using them)

 

[D.Pagenkopf]

The accuracy of the Templar seems to be normal for a semi auto rifle in 223. It's a great looking and as it sounds reliable concept. As a bench shooter and lazy cleaner I prefer the SL8. Non AR mag compatibility does not bother me.

I do like the idea of being a lazy cleaner. I remember shooting my SKS and being annoyed with having to do a total strip down to clean up the rifle. I think my purpose will mostly be dynamic shooting and having multiple mags is nice, the AR STANAGs are relatively affordable and widely available as compared to the proprietary SL8 mags- the G36 mags are cheaper but I'm not wanting to monkey around with this at the moment. I do like the sounds of the HK barrel and SL8 accuracy, I do have other bolt guns I hunt with that I can get my super accuracy kick out of. Although I wonder if anything could be done to tighten up the groups in terms of some kind of work via a smith or aftermarket parts.

 

[D.Pagenkopf]

I hear you. I prefer many other semi-auto 5.56mm rifles over the Templar as well. However, of the limited selection that our lizard overlords still permit us to legally discharge, it is not a bad choice. Not the best, but not bad The Templar wasn't getting much discussion in this thread, which is why I mentioned the rifle and its capabilities. When choices are limited, every decent option is worth consideration.

Enjoy your SL-8. I quite liked the one that I had a few years ago, although it had been heavily modified with a G36K Front End and an ACR buttstock on a Stock-Block conversion. It was great until the parts-kit G36s appeared for not much more $$, then I had to have one of those instead! Truth be known, my favorite 5.56mm HK was not the G36 or SL8, but rather my MR223A3 Sadly, I am no longer trusted by the goverment to own a semi-automatic facsimile of the rifle that I carried in service to Canada for 30 years. Mores the pity, as the German AR has a better trigger than the G36, muscle-memory controls, shorter length, it is more adjustable and modular, etc. The HK416/MR223 is arguably the best piston-driven 5.56mm AR to ever enter large-scale production.

One of my favorites as well. Unfortunately it appears that it will never be leaving my safe again...

Never say Never, as things could still change for the better with a change of Government and a rewrite of the Firearms Act. Although some of my guarded optimism seems from where I happen to live, I do think that we all stand to benefit directly from a Pollievre government.

Those are two great looking guns. I did want an AR platform pre-OIC... never was quite the right time to buy a gun in those days for myself. But I never liked that they were restricted, and I'm sure that anyone that had one didn't like that fact either.

A re-write of the Firearms act is well in order, Pollievre could change this situation. We will have to see come ballot time. I've hated that act ever since I understood what "PROHIBITED" was when my Dad told me at about the age of 7. I've understood now what it means to be a political ball being kicked around. In 2012 I got my license and never have I ever had to register a single firearm, there was the initial pushback via those CFOs or whomever for still wanting to take personal information down and I can remember pushing back against the guy at the till. I hope things can change, I would like to be able to own a full-auto, and mini handguns, or just every dam gun under the sun, there is no real reason to not be able to own any gun past the reason the second amendment was written- standing up to the totalitarians with arms- which is another sinister reason I feel the gov is doing this... Preaching to the quire I'm sure...!

I'm leaning towards the Templar, maybe not with the trigger to try and keep everything in a budget. I will be buying mags because ammo needs places to live. STANAGS are plentiful and I like the option of LAR and alike to be able to blast more than five rounds. It has a nice look to it, the rifle has the cool military metal look with the tacticool dress up you can do with it. It has a larger piston and other improvements from previous generations of the 180 platform. I would have blindly bought a WK-180 prior to all this C-21 bliss (minus the lis) as it was a rifle I've seen many times at all the local shops and routinely on sale at Cabelas, but reading up on it I think I'd have been fine with one but if I had a problem with it I'd be choked, I'm meticulous so I don't think I'd have issues- but its always a possibility and going over the gun after every shoot could get old quick and getting complacent would be where the issues creep in. I still like the WK-180, but would prefer to avoid it now, who knows maybe the Templar could have its own sticky issue I'll have to deal with...

I guess my question now revolves around how the SL8 and Templar do with the different AR-type mags in regard to fit, form, function etc. I think I've watched most of the templar vids out there, looks like it can take a variety of mags reliably, but promo vids when a gun is new only take a guy so far.

 

[Bartok5]

Those are two great looking guns. I did want an AR platform pre-OIC... never was quite the right time to buy a gun in those days for myself. But I never liked that they were restricted, and I'm sure that anyone that had one didn't like that fact either.

A re-write of the Firearms act is well in order, Pollievre could change this situation. We will have to see come ballot time. I've hated that act ever since I understood what "PROHIBITED" was when my Dad told me at about the age of 7. I've understood now what it means to be a political ball being kicked around. In 2012 I got my license and never have I ever had to register a single firearm, there was the initial pushback via those CFOs or whomever for still wanting to take personal information down and I can remember pushing back against the guy at the till. I hope things can change, I would like to be able to own a full-auto, and mini handguns, or just every dam gun under the sun, there is no real reason to not be able to own any gun past the reason the second amendment was written- standing up to the totalitarians with arms- which is another sinister reason I feel the gov is doing this... Preaching to the quire I'm sure...!

I'm leaning towards the Templar, maybe not with the trigger to try and keep everything in a budget. I will be buying mags because ammo needs places to live. STANAGS are plentiful and I like the option of LAR and alike to be able to blast more than five rounds. It has a nice look to it, the rifle has the cool military metal look with the tacticool dress up you can do with it. It has a larger piston and other improvements from previous generations of the 180 platform. I would have blindly bought a WK-180 prior to all this C-21 bliss (minus the lis) as it was a rifle I've seen many times at all the local shops and routinely on sale at Cabelas, but reading up on it I think I'd have been fine with one but if I had a problem with it I'd be choked, I'm meticulous so I don't think I'd have issues- but its always a possibility and going over the gun after every shoot could get old quick and getting complacent would be where the issues creep in. I still like the WK-180, but would prefer to avoid it now, who knows maybe the Templar could have its own sticky issue I'll have to deal with...

I guess my question now revolves around how the SL8 and Templar do with the different AR-type mags in regard to fit, form, function etc. I think I've watched most of the templar vids out there, looks like it can take a variety of mags reliably, but promo vids when a gun is new only take a guy so far.

My Templar has been reliable with every type of STANAG magazine that I have tried in it. These include:

- USGI - all generations from 5/20 to 5/40, Gen 2 to the latest "Surefeed 5.56mm"
- Lancer AWM
- HK 416
- Magpul PMAG Gen 2 and 3
- Troy Hex Mag 5/30
- Hera 5/30
- CZ Bren 25/30
- Ammo Storage Components 10/10
- CPD 5/5
- Etc

Feel free to hit me up with any other questions that you have, either by PM or if you think it is relevant to eveyone, then in the forum. I bought a Templar partially to see what the new rifle is all about, but also to be able to answer other people's questions about the new platform as one of the few options remaining in a shrinking pool of semi-autos centrefire rifles.

The only down-sides to the Templar are its weight, the Buttstock flops around when folded, and I don't personally care for the placement of the Thumb-actuated Bolt Catch (but I understand why they did what they did). If you can live with those, the amply-demonstrated positives are numerous. The Templar is Reliable, Accurate, has an excellent Trigger (TriggerTech upgrade), Durable, comfortable Ergonomics, has a Self-Regulating Gas System, is Aesthetically pleasing, etc.

I must stress the importance of going with the Trigger Tech upgrade for $250. You will save yourself $30 over the cost of an upgrade that you are eventually going to want anyways, so you may as well have it right from the start. It will totally change the "feel" of the rifle for the better and will allow you to wring the most accuracy out of the platform. It is the single most important upgrade that you can make to your Templar rifle, bar none.

 

[D.Pagenkopf]

My Templar has been reliable with every type of STANAG magazine that I have tried in it. These include:

- USGI - all generations from 5/20 to 5/40, Gen 2 to the latest "Surefeed 5.56mm"
- Lancer AWM
- HK 416
- Magpul PMAG Gen 2 and 3
- Troy Hex Mag 5/30
- Hera 5/30
- CZ Bren 25/30
- Ammo Storage Components 10/10
- CPD 5/5
- Etc

Feel free to hit me up with any other questions that you have, either by PM or if you think it is relevant to eveyone, then in the forum. I bought a Templar partially to see what the new rifle is all about, but also to be able to answer other people's questions about the new platform as one of the few options remaining in a shrinking pool of semi-autos centrefire rifles.

The only down-sides to the Templar are its weight, the Buttstock flops around when folded, and I don't personally care for the placement of the Thumb-actuated Bolt Catch (but I understand why they did what they did). If you can live with those, the amply-demonstrated positives are numerous. The Templar is Reliable, Accurate, has an excellent Trigger (TriggerTech upgrade), Durable, comfortable Ergonomics, has a Self-Regulating Gas System, is Aesthetically pleasing, etc.

I must stress the importance of going with the Trigger Tech upgrade for $250. You will save yourself $30 over the cost of an upgrade that you are eventually going to want anyways, so you may as well have it right from the start. It will totally change the "feel" of the rifle for the better and will allow you to wring the most accuracy out of the platform. It is the single most important upgrade that you can make to your Templar rifle, bar none.

I appreciate all the information, at the moment the only thing I can think of is when your holding the rifle how does it feel for balance? I know you said it's heavy. I held an SL8 again the other day, I did notice how the gun felt very front heavy with the target barrel on it. I do like the SL8 but after holding it again I think it would be an intense workout in a dynamic shooting situation. I like the weight on the BCL Siberian but it isn't available yet. With a week left in parliament that's enough time for another OIC...

I'm definitely heading towards a Templar

 

[Bartok5]

I appreciate all the information, at the moment the only thing I can think of is when your holding the rifle how does it feel for balance? I know you said it's heavy. I held an SL8 again the other day, I did notice how the gun felt very front heavy with the target barrel on it. I do like the SL8 but after holding it again I think it would be an intense workout in a dynamic shooting situation. I like the weight on the BCL Siberian but it isn't available yet. With a week left in parliament that's enough time for another OIC...

I'm definitely heading towards a Templar

With the LPVO removed, my Templar balances right where it is supposed to - right in front of the Front Take-Down Pin for balanced carriage afield (when not slung). The Templar has sufficient weight in the rear end that it is almost perfectly balanced, with no hint of front-heaviness. As a result, despite its weight the Templar feels lighter and more agile in the hands than you might expect. It points well and transitions between targets quickly.

Weight is a relative thing. My Templar weighs 5.9 kg or 13.1 lbs fully kitted (but unloaded), with a Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10x LPVO, KDG Side-Loc Mount, Streamlight TLR-1 HL 1000 lumen Weapon Light, and Magpul Vertical Fore-Grip. My C8 Flat-Top Heavy-Barrel service carbine (circa 2008) weighed 5.6 kg or 12.4 lbs fully deployment kitted (unloaded) with my personal Trijicon 1-4x LPVO, Larue SPR Mount, an M3X White Light Tactical Illuminator, a PEQ 2A Leader's IR Laser/Spotlight, Redi-Mag Reload System, and so forth. So, not much difference between the two systems weight-wise, even though the Colt Carbine starts out considerably lighter weight and shorter overall length. If you can't comfortably "run and gun" with a 13 lb primary arm, you couldn't hack it in the Canadian Infantry. God forbid you should get stuck with carrying the C9 LMG that starts at 13 lbs unloaded and without Optic, IR Laser, 200 rd Belt Box, etc!

I guess what I'm trying to say (in not so many words) is that 13 lbs just isn't a big deal. It is pretty much the standard loadout. Yes, lighter is better - nobody is stupid enough to dispute that. But 13 lbs is not excessive.

 

[D.Pagenkopf]

With the LPVO removed, my Templar balances right where it is supposed to - right in front of the Front Take-Down Pin for balanced carriage afield (when not slung). The Templar has sufficient weight in the rear end that it is almost perfectly balanced, with no hint of front-heaviness. As a result, despite its weight the Templar feels lighter and more agile in the hands than you might expect. It points well and transitions between targets quickly.

Weight is a relative thing. My Templar weighs 5.9 kg or 13.1 lbs fully kitted (but unloaded), with a Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10x LPVO, KDG Side-Loc Mount, Streamlight TLR-1 HL 1000 lumen Weapon Light, and Magpul Vertical Fore-Grip. My C8 Flat-Top Heavy-Barrel service carbine (circa 2008) weighed 5.6 kg or 12.4 lbs fully deployment kitted (unloaded) with my personal Trijicon 1-4x LPVO, Larue SPR Mount, an M3X White Light Tactical Illuminator, a PEQ 2A Leader's IR Laser/Spotlight, Redi-Mag Reload System, and so forth. So, not much difference between the two systems weight-wise, even though the Colt Carbine starts out considerably lighter weight and shorter overall length. If you can't comfortably "run and gun" with a 13 lb primary arm, you couldn't hack it in the Canadian Infantry. God forbid you should get stuck with carrying the C9 LMG that starts at 13 lbs unloaded and without Optic, IR Laser, 200 rd Belt Box, etc!

I guess what I'm trying to say (in not so many words) is that 13 lbs just isn't a big deal. It is pretty much the standard loadout. Yes, lighter is better - nobody is stupid enough to dispute that. But 13 lbs is not excessive.

That's great to hear that it has a nice balance to it.
Weight is relative... I packed a 1950s Husquavrna 270 in the mountains hunting sheep... I didn't have the money for a set up less than 10lbs at the time... Now I'm working out the grams I can shave off my lightweight t3x I've got a couple year plan for- hoping sub 6lbs unloaded... I guess that is the mental framework I have biased towards gun weight lol, being in the sheep-hunting world trying to shave weight off everything I carry when I'm in the backcountry hunting/hiking (I only hike where guns are aloud...), lite makes rite!

Well, the point I was leading to with the SL8 was that it was super front-heavy and without the extra add-ons from Hera and co. etc to balance it (if it had the weight to counteract the front-heavy barrel profile).
A firearm with the weight that is balanced well just makes everything a bit nicer, in terms of run & gun.
Hearing about the army and peoples experiences these days makes me wish I had gone a different route in life sometimes, sounds like fun though. But carrying a 13 lb unloaded C9 sounds like a chore...

I missed out on getting a CZ Bren, Irunguns had some dirt cheap the other day $2200 thereabouts. I missed out. Looking through the EE daily checking for Templars, I'm messaging a guy about one in the EE. If those Siberians ever come out and maybe get out into the wild I'll have to look into them. We'll see how it goes

 

[D.Pagenkopf]

Again wicked little rifle. On the PMAG whats the piece on the bottom doing?

 

[Bartok5]

Again wicked little rifle. On the PMAG whats the piece on the bottom doing?

This was essentially my 2008 deployment service carbine. This one is just missing the "Fun Switch" and of course, the magazine is limited to 5 rounds. The "Ranger Plates" on the bottom of the magazines are to assist in plucking the magazines from their pouches on the user's load-bearing gear. They are just a fancy version of the old "Ranger Tab" which was created by wrapping tape around a loop of Para Cord run under the Floorplate to create a Pull-Loop.