Belgian man has a warehouse full of Leopard tanks, willing to sell:

armybuck041 said:
I'm merely pointing out that the Leopard 1 is definitely not the Leopard 2. I still think that they would be better served with whatever leftover T-72s are out there than an outdated western tank with its own peculiarities and logistical challenges.
Click to expand...

Rationalization of the UA tank fleet and other western and Russian legacy equipments into fewer types would be a post-war goal.

The Germans are also offering 88 Leo 1s, which need refurbishment, and Denmark is sending 20. The Greek Army has nearly 500 Leo 1s, some of which are being upgraded (no tank offers from Greece yet).

On the other side, the RF is scrambling to refurbish some 800 T-62s, so its starting to look like back to the future. I suppose the best indicator of usefulness would be if Ukraine declines to accept Leo 1s. The Leo 1's cousin, the Gepard AA system, is getting good reviews on knocking down the Iranian drones.

I remember when the Germans were doing winter trials on Leopard prototypes at Camp Shilo in 1965. It was the closest they could get to replicating the Russian steppes.:eek:To this point in their history Leopard tanks have been involved in far more political fighting than actual fighting.:rolleyes:
 
Yes, because nothing but the new most fan-dangled piece of technology has ever significantly contributed to winning a conflict.
 
fingers284 said:
I just want one of their surplus barrels...buddy of mine got ahold of one from Suffield and cut in half, made two very accurate cannons with the two pieces...Datsun truck accurate at 600 M with 1 lb of BP.
Click to expand...
A surplus store on Highway 16 just west of portage used to have a Leo one barrel for sale it’s about 15 years ago might still have it
 
Bartok5 said:
Obsolete Leo 1s - not worth a pinch of coon stuff against a modern MBT without some serious lethality and survivability upgrades.....
Click to expand...

While I agree they would not stack well against T90s, they would hold their own against all but the most recent T72 variants.

A good use would be to station these along the Belorussian border to free up T64's for use on the Kherson or Bakhmut fronts.
 
Bartok5 said:
Obsolete Leo 1s - not worth a pinch of coon stuff against a modern MBT without some serious lethality and survivability upgrades.....
Click to expand...

I will say while the 105mm L7 gunned tank is dated it is a tank and a weapon system. I used to tell soldiers during briefs that while the T-72 was old and certainly not up to western/NATO standards, it was still a weapon and should be treated with respect. I would also add a "single shot cooey .22 while a toy of a weapon............ was still a weapon". Time will tell how this turns out.
 
In the news today, Germany and Belgium are each sending dozens of Leo 1A5 variants (updated into the 1990's) from war reserve. I think I saw around 88 from Reinmetall and 20 or so from Belgian army stocks.

From wikipedia (yes, I know...):

Leopard 1A5


In 1980, a research program was undertaken to study further improvements to the Leopard 1, providing it with a completely modern fire control system and fully effective night/bad-weather vision system. The decision was made to base the upgrades on the earlier models, which were no longer competitive.

The resulting Leopard 1A5 was based on 1,225 vehicles of the Leopard 1A1A1 model. The turrets were again modified for the 1A5, both in order to store all of the new equipment, as well as to move more of the ammunition into the rear of the turret, as opposed to the left side of the driver where it had previously been stored. The new turret was able to mount the newer 120 mm gun from the Leopard 2 if desired, although this option has not been used.

After trials, the Krupp-Atlas Elektronik EMES 18 fire control system, which was developed from the EMES 15 used on the Leopard 2, was selected in December 1983. The EMES 18 included two new sights on the top of the turret, and no longer required the "bumps" as the earlier optical systems did. A crucial part of the upgrade was the introduction of more effective ammunition, including new APFSDS rounds.

The Leopard tank could be fitted with bolt-on polycarbonate (Lexan) armour panels, which have increased the effectiveness of the armour. The first modified vehicle was delivered in early 1987. Since then, almost all users of the Leopard 1 have applied similar changes to their own vehicles, and in most ways the 1A5 can be considered the "standard" Leopard 1 today.
Click to expand...

In terms of crew survivability, I suspect a 1A5 leopard is probably an improvement over T72, more so with applique armor and possibly retrofitted Kontakt packets on the front. The gun should penetrate most soviet armor just fine. The sighting systems are superior to all but the latest russian variants. Given Russia has essentially run out of "latest variants", that may not be a huge issue.

I'm fairly certain the Ukrainians will be more than happy to take 100+ 1A5 models if they are serviceable. As I mentioned, worst case, they can be put in secondary roles to free up newer tanks for the front lines.
 
Last edited:
Claven2 said:
In the news today, Germany and Belgium are each sending dozens of Leo 1A5 variants (updated into the 1990's) from war reserve. I think I saw around 88 from Reinmetall and 20 or so from Belgian army stocks.

From wikipedia (yes, I know...):



In terms of crew survivability, I suspect a 1A5 leopard is probably an improvement over T72, more so with applique armor and possibly retrofitted Kontakt packets on the front. The gun should penetrate most soviet armor just fine. The sighting systems are superior to all but the latest russian variants. Given Russia has essentially run out of "latest variants", that may not be a huge issue.

I'm fairly certain the Ukrainians will be more than happy to take 100+ 1A5 models if they are serviceable. As I mentioned, worst case, they can be put in secondary roles to free up newer tanks for the front lines.
Click to expand...

The L7 is a pretty good gun, still widely used. The American M68 Tank Gun is still fitted to a lot of National Guard M60 tanks, and some other equipment. The British, Americans, and anyone who's still running the M60, older Centurions, Merkeva I and II, Leopard 1, up gunned M48's (and those are all tanks that have spread far and wide as military aide).

The Chinese even produced copies of the L7/M68 gun to stick on export T-54/55 tanks, Type 59, Type 60, Type 80, etc. etc. It was essentially the default gun the Chinese put on export variants going to countries that needed a gun that fired NATO ammo.

It's one of the most prolific tank guns ever made. There's a wide variety of ammo, and huge stockpiles, throughout NATO and the 2nd and 3rd world. In a lot of ways, it will be easier to feed than the 120MM on the Leop 2 and M1 tanks. Perhaps more importantly, it will make it easy for countries that can't afford to be seen supporting Ukraine to send ammo, with a heavy dose of plausible deniability.
 
Me and other range members were going to pool our resources to get one, then we thought Trudeau would likely ban them before we could get it here.:rolleyes:
 
I have seen hundreds of Abrams tanks (outdated models?) in row after row after row parked at a storage base in northern Maine, right on the Canadian border. They look reasonably well maintained and are being kept for some reason. Inevitable invasion of Canada? Spare parts? Backup? Same with Hummers, miles of them.
 
Congress keeps the Abrams production line going for political and strategic reasons. But the net result is the army has thousands of mothballed Abrams tanks.

They produce domestic version with better armor and export versions with more conventional armor.

Not sure what version the ukr's will get.

The us could easily give away hundreds of Abrams without serious impact to the army. They are choosing not to.
 
Rob said:
I have seen hundreds of Abrams tanks (outdated models?) in row after row after row parked at a storage base in northern Maine, right on the Canadian border. They look reasonably well maintained and are being kept for some reason. Inevitable invasion of Canada? Spare parts? Backup? Same with Hummers, miles of them.
Click to expand...

That is a defence vehicle and comms equipment refurbishment facility setup at the old Loring AFB. It was intended to offset some of the job losses that resulted from the closure of the base back in the 1990s.
 
armybuck041 said:
That is a defence vehicle and comms equipment refurbishment facility setup at the old Loring AFB. It was intended to offset some of the job losses that resulted from the closure of the base back in the 1990s.
Click to expand...

I remember going to see Loring when I was a kid. I had family in Grand falls and we'd drive over to see the b52s. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
 
Claven2 said:
I remember going to see Loring when I was a kid. I had family in Grand falls and we'd drive over to see the b52s. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
Click to expand...

These days Loring has been used for other things, including the setting of speed records.
Oi5My5k.jpg

OvfPtNk.jpg

14CDbbS.jpg

/
 
Last edited:
Are the Leopard 1s obsolete in a modern tank conflict? Yeah. But that doesn't mean they're not useful. They'd make a great training tool, or infantry intimate support vehicle. Not to mention, the Leopard 1s are much quieter than the Leopard 2s and get almost twice the mileage.
 
cancer said:
Are the Leopard 1s obsolete in a modern tank conflict? Yeah. But that doesn't mean they're not useful. They'd make a great training tool, or infantry intimate support vehicle. Not to mention, the Leopard 1s are much quieter than the Leopard 2s and get almost twice the mileage.
Click to expand...

Not to mention, look at what they're going up against. Russia is digging increasingly deep into the reserves. A Leop 1 against a T-80 is probably going to have a very bad day. Against a T-64 fresh out of the long term storage depot with the water freshly drained from the fuel lines and a bit of rust knocked off the gears to get it running, and a couple rattle cans of Rust-Oleum to make it look less janky... Put your money on the Leop 1.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom