Big Game Calibers - Math vs Experiences?

That’s Dogleg there, we were finally drying out. The rest of the hunt didn’t look like that weather wise.

On the Cutting Edge bullets, they sponsored our bullets at the operation. Everything was light for caliber by their recommendation, I had 120s for the 7mm, 200s and 235s for the .375s. They also gave me Safari Raptors in 275gr but I’ve still never loaded any, didn’t see a good reason to give up the BC and speed.

They’re still on my desk, maybe for next time in Africa.
 
In the spirit of this thread... do you think you would have flattened it the same with a 7mm RM with a 160AB?
And, how would you have felt, confidence wise, at the time?
R.

That's an interesting question; without a simple answer. I'll try though. I have a 7 rem (Kimber Select Grade) that I use 160 Accubonds in. I also use them in my small herd of bigger 7s as well; at least some of the time. Those include 7-300 Win, 28 Nosler and an armful of STWs. It has the endearing trait of usually shooting in a various rifles too. A good 7mm 160 grain at 3000 fps in my rifle is nothing be sneezed at, but its no .308 caliber 180 same bullet at very close to 3300 fps. It just isn't. You don't need a formula to tell the difference but such a formula would have to give its results in Wow-factors.;)

On to the confidence part. I could have made that shot (100ish yards, offhand, full frontal chest shot) with the 7 Rem no problem; but I could have also made it with an SKS so that part is a non-issue. Would the result have been similar? Maybe, probably, because frontal chest shots are deadly and pretty impressive. I've shot a lot of bears that way because of my trapline. On the confidence vein though, I'd used that rifle and bullet on enough animals including Asiatic buffalo, a massive scrub bull and enough sundry animals to scorch the first 5 inches of rifling. I had no way of knowing that when my opportunity came it would be a 100ish shot at its wish-bone because it could have anything; but was confident enough that I would be able to handle anything that came up. Confident enough to leave a perfectly good 375 H&H in the tent that morning without blinking.:) I was tired of watching it rust.

I have no doubt that I could go grizzly hunting with a 7 Rem or my bigger 7s. I also know that such hunts are expensive, opportunities are limited, bears are hard to track and always go into cover, and there is a tiny, practically miniscule chance that one might take a bite out of you. I'd rather error on the side of a little more gun, which I have plenty of.

I guess that isn't much of an answer.

As a side note; I rebarrelled that RUM to 7-300 when it died.
 
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I've enjoyed the last pages of this thread. I talked to the people at Cutting Edge about a bullet for my 338 Win Mag. I was surprised when she told me lots of people like the 175 grain in that cartridge. I ended up going with a 205 Hammer Hunter and like it a lot. First bullet I am going to try in my new 300 PRC, carry rifle, will be a 181 Hammer Hunter. If it was a target rifle I would shoot the heavier Berger or Hornady bullets. I am making the move to lighter and faster for my hunting rifles.

Great picture Ardent!

That’s Dogleg there, we were finally drying out. The rest of the hunt didn’t look like that weather wise.

On the Cutting Edge bullets, they sponsored our bullets at the operation. Everything was light for caliber by their recommendation, I had 120s for the 7mm, 200s and 235s for the .375s. They also gave me Safari Raptors in 275gr but I’ve still never loaded any, didn’t see a good reason to give up the BC and speed.

They’re still on my desk, maybe for next time in Africa.

cutting edge bullets are great but watch out as part are flying away once they hit the inside.
 
In gentlemanly debate, much as the internet allows anyhow I’m concerned you have a hypothesis that you can’t bend on, and are unwilling to move from the set of rules you believe apply universally. :) From what I saw over the years here, Africa and elsewhere in outfitting and culling SD would rank as the least important factor aside from diameter with modern bullets. I believe it was more important with past overly soft, non-bonded bullets with soft lead cores, or where FMJs / solids were relied on for penetration alone.

In the proportion of the game shot that came from outfitting, distance travelled after the hit was paid great heed as you don’t want a mountain goat moving lest it become unrecoverable, or a grizzly hiding wounded. For a time I attempted some measure of scientific method of paces taken after the shot, but that really doesn’t work with mountain goats and was abandoned. The patterns became very clear to even a casual observer in the end, and my head guide preferred .270 WSM for everything. He’d seen a lot of hits in his career.

With grizz your headspace was often elsewhere if they were out of sight. In the end, it became extremely apparent the least important factor was SD, the most important was a good bullet arriving fast. SD did have a corollary effect that only really surfaced after 300-400 yards in that higher SD relates very closely to higher ballistic coefficients, and meant more retained velocity (energy).

In the end a .30 cal premium 130gr outperformed a 175gr 7x57 routinely which was my main client loaner. Early on I loaded 175s, later I switched to 140gr premiums with significantly improved effect on game. This was inconvenient for my beliefs as I’ve said before here, I went in believing in heavy for caliber and moderate speeds, and left having to accept speed (energy) kills best, long as the bullet construction is up to job. And so many are these days.

I used to wax about SDs of .300 and speeds around 2300-2500 for years ten to fifteen years ago, in the end that was utterly trumped in experience and now I only advocate for a premium bullet arriving at the animals at 2200fps minimum, and ideally 2400fps or better. Cartridges capable of 3000fps at the muzzle make that far easier, and were more effective in the field in BC where ranges stretch long and animals to move after the hit become highly problematic. My favourite guns to guide, the .300s, I much preferred seeing a lighter, faster premium in that an 180 or 200gr range.

The least impressive .300 effect I witnessed on grizz were on longer shots with stiff 190gr bullets on a pair of grizz, one happening to be my own. It got in a river and died swimming in a stiff current, and made for a bit of a rodeo retrieval. When I worked it back, those bullets arrived around 2000fps, when I saw similar bullets land closer and faster on the same game, the effect was significantly more immediate. Consistently, low SD bullets of modern construction penetrated completely, and no more could be asked of them in that measure.

All good, I am inflexible lol, tying the ole boot laces makes me grunt quite a bit. It's all good, we're both good students and studying things through slightly different lenses. Still though, we can objective it further, that's all I've done a little more so. Your examples and experiences are vast but you are using subjective to say what works. The formula I talk about exists in your examples and if you took the time to chart out as much of what you can remember as possible you'd see what you preferred more objectively for all sorts of species and game brackets.

Ie; the big bears, wanting 2200 fps impact min with adequate sd (~.25) and construction (premium as you say which could mean delayed controlled expansion; retaining sd for deep penetration) for game intended. And we can go round and round.

If you have a lot of speed and tough bullets you still get some expansion to do the stuff inside we like and can get away with moderate sd. You can slow it down and use high sd with moderate expansion and achieve similar. Each bracket size of game will want a different formula. Elk guys often happy with 2000 fps at minimum for example. But the way we describe the bullets is subjective (premium etc.). The observations mostly subjective and including headstamps or (fast) instead of actual impact velocities. We 'feel' what works best after all the experience and observation...which is subjective.

Now, take the knowns (7rm 160 AB or 300 wm 180 etc.) and break them down to as much objective as you can and you will see the formula emerge that you can then look at other options, new, whatever and see what to expect, given a like 'construction'. Big fan of accubonds here, that's what I ran a lot in .270 and .270 wsm(140's). They are a little tough for deer size game but a great match for elk. The data is there...you do have a more objective view of this that you prefer, but it would take time and effort to go nuts with a spreadsheet to start working it out. Be easier to just start with your fav's and break them down and then compare other options to that and see if you'd approve. It's a little easier on the animals that way. ;)

And until we can actually nail down construction to sdrr(sectional density reduction rate) and err(energy reduction rate) and combine with expansion ratio, that will remain the most subjective. We are way behind in objectifying terminal ballistics as compared to 'in-flight'. The answers lie in the finished bullets but no one is yet looking at that. When we do, and standardize testing and make all comparable then we will surely cut down on the internet traffic on this topic lol. Objective views at last. Hopefully these discussions spur that development, more ideas etc.
 
That's an interesting question; without a simple answer. I'll try though. I have a 7 rem (Kimber Select Grade) that I use 160 Accubonds in. I also use them in my small herd of bigger 7s as well; at least some of the time. Those include 7-300 Win, 28 Nosler and an armful of STWs. It has the endearing trait of usually shooting in a various rifles too. A good 7mm 160 grain at 3000 fps in my rifle is nothing be sneezed at, but its no .308 caliber 180 same bullet at very close to 3300 fps. It just isn't. You don't need a formula to tell the difference but such a formula would have to give its results in Wow-factors.;)

So to Ardent as well, wanted to example this as one of your most popular choices for certain brackets of game. Lets take it from the subjective 'fast 7 with premium bullet' to more objective look.

MV 3000, 160gr AB, BC .531, SD .283. Launched at my elevation it will hold 2200 fps well past 500 yards, sea level a lot closer to 500.

I can see why this is a favourite. Very high sd and a bullet that blends performance between rapid expansion and delayed expansion yet holds together to maximize penetration (keeps lots of SD). Where a 160 ballistic tip would shed a good percentage of it's weight reducing penetration but increasing damage internally over the shorter penetration range due to higher expansion rate. You could then look at a 160 ttsx and it would be the other side of the equation of the AB.

So you've got a formula there. .283 SD (higher than most 3rd class game options you'll see on market (30 cal 180 is only .271 for reference, and this is all about referencing what we already know works), and a moderate expansion rate bullet that holds it's weight regardless to maximize penetration. Then a cartridge that can drive it to past your preferred impact velocity range to past where most will even shoot, past 400 yards as I thought I saw mentioned, and if you trust that to 400 then you trust that combo to about 2340 fps impact on some pretty tough animals.

Now if one goes around trying to replicate that with other cartridges you'll have a hard time beating it. That's a pinnacle formula to cover a vast majority of game options including much bigger than most would think to take a 7 for. The answers lied in the formula. Now for giggles drop 400 fps off that MV to assume same bullet in a 7-08 and you're hitting the same impact at 175 yards instead of 400 lol. Still a formidable formula just half the range potential of the 7rm. And being the 7rm even faster up close, expect more expansion and internal damage over the first couple hundred yards than the 7-08, but you're in your comfort window with either, just different range potentials of 175 vs 400.

Isn't that easier to see more objectively than just choose a 'fast 7 with heavy premium'?

A lot of guys swear by the ole 300wm 180gr combo. Do same thing, .271 SD, and with BC known and MV known one can back math it to see how far they trusted that on what game brackets and can have a more objective formula to look at to then go ahead and compare other options to it. It will become obvious why some choices kill better than others. The patterns will emerge. It will help explain why guys have no issue killing bull elk at 600 with a 6.5 Creedmoor and 140-147's (.287 to .301 SD's) and while launched with moderate velocity...due to the very high bc they retain their velocity therefore the distance potential is as unusually long as they penetration potential, and by keeping the velocity range in check for rapid expansion construction bullets you mimic a fast bonded bullet in what happens internally. In the 6.5 Creedmoor you can get 2650 out of the 147 at .697 bc and .301 sd, it will land at 2000 fps out to almost 600 yards, and with a bullet that is guaranteed to open up well and also penetrate super deep with that ridiculously high .301 SD. You did it with 12 ft/lbs recoil energy. The 7rm 160 example can do it a little further but likely 2.5x the recoil and tougher bullet will also drive deeper for next level game brackets above elk.

The point is, reduce them all to the numbers and construction type, not the headstamps, and you'll see a more objective way to see and discuss terminal ballistics. Start comparing. It's easy to see why some are over achievers (cough creedmoor, or prc). You've come to love a formula in numbers but just haven't reduced your experiences to that yet. ;)
 
I've been a fan of 7x57 for years. It's a handload caliber, if you want it's ballistic twin, with powerful factory ammo, try 7-08. Old manuals, pre lawyer liability, show okay loads. Modern, lawyer approved load sources show 175gr at about 2300ft/sec MV. So now I've loaded some 120-100gr 7x57, basically a 257roberts on steroids.

Earlier in the thread, the 25-20 is interesting. Here, on the island, the only "big" game are the smallest blacktail on the coast, no predators.
 
An interjection... and in response to both of blakeyboy's posts above... this is Dogleg's quote: "I have no doubt that I could go grizzly hunting with a 7 Rem or my bigger 7s. I also know that such hunts are expensive, opportunities are limited, bears are hard to track and always go into cover, and there is a tiny, practically miniscule chance that one might take a bite out of you. I'd rather error on the side of a little more gun, which I have plenty of"

This is the problem... all the miles driven, flown, walked, crawled, whatever... the math done, everything. It all comes down to the shot. We all know that. We also know all of those things that need to come together all at the right time to make the shot... well... the shot. It's right at that very moment in time, when one does not need to second guess any choice he made for a cartridge. The one that might do it, or the one that definitely, without a doubt, will absolutely do it, even if, or most likely, when. something isn't absolutely perfect.
Hunting is about attempting to control as many variables as possible, and getting enjoyment out of the ones you can't possibly control. And they change constantly. If going up a calibre, or a bullet weight means being successful or not, with everything at stake, what would you choose?

R.
 
I should qualify my choosing light end on chamberings too. What I’m really saying is the fast end. The best is undeniably fast and heavy. There comes a recoil consideration with that, and in each case for myself as I never got into the RUMs or Weatherby’s, I’m pushing a standard cartridge to do a fast cartridge’s work. That means by default I’m shopping the 120-140s in 7s, the 130-150s in .30. Dogleg’s 180gr .300 RUM grizz is the fastest grizz kill I’ve seen, in that cartridge a 130 couldn’t possibly outperform what the 180 did. I have to downshift to get the some of the speed the RUM case will push a heavy for caliber hunting bullet.

In the end though, that speed doesn’t disappoint. The FBI ballistics lab put science to it at length, long after the French figured it out something Dogleg first told me. They determined through exhaustive testing impacts of 2200fps and above cause radiating, permanent tissue damage well away from the wound site. The speed of the waves travelling through the tissues originating from a 2200fps or greater impact ruptures the cell walls. Below 2200fps, it’s like a switch flips and the bullets create a temporary stretch cavity, and the cell walls hold together in all but the immediate vicinity of the hit. Hence eat right up to the hole heavy and slow rounds.

The FBI determined this extra damage was so useful they started issuing high velocity carbines in place of 9mm carbines and shotguns. Many militaries had obviously figured out the greater than 2200fps effects long ago as well. I just prolong it down range by starting faster, with a light and quality bullet. I don’t shoot past 300-400 on game, and across that course the light and fast bullet wins.
 
The French figured it out because they are credited with developing smokeless powder as we know it. Its not new.:)

Balle M didn't break 2200 fps and Balle D barely broke it at the muzzle, the Balle D/05 (1905) hit 2380 in response to the German 1905 load ,154 @2880. So how'd they figure it out?
 
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Balle M didn't break 2200 fps and Balle D barely broke it at the muzzle, the Balle D/05 (1905) hit 2380 in response to the German 1905 load ,154 @2880. So how'd they figure it out?

Maybe they just named the effect ;). Point being; that when velocities crawled out of the black powder era it was quickly noted that something new was going on. Sort of like when I got my mitts on my first STW almost 35 years ago. My first interest in it was for the new to me MPBR of 400 plus with 140s, but that was almost over shadowed by animals going down like the ground got jerked out from underneath them. 140s at 35-3600 fps was an eye opener; almost a #### tabernak moment (to keep the French in the loop;) ). Although it new to me as an observation, Weatherby had been doing that sort of thing since the 40s and talking about it. He wasn't wrong.
 
Did they name this effect circa 1915 after catching a few hundred thousand bullets?

I think you can take it back further regarding increased velocity, in one of the old Boone and Crockett books they have an old timey bear hunter writing that the best Grizzly load was a 340gr hollowpoint at 1900fps over the Govt Chronograph (as only Govts had them circa 1876), if memory serves he said 17/24 Grizzlies he shot that year only took 1 shot, he also wrote about Indians trying to trade horses with 7th Cavalry brands so this was when the 45-70 was State of the Art, this flies directly in the face of the 45-70 hard cast crowd.

Or the "Express" Black Powder loads.
 
www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/shocking-bullet-performance Quote:

"Clearly, bullet shock works sometimes. But not all times. I’m guessing it’s much like that boxer’s punch. Sometimes what looks like a perfect, knockout punch barely fazes the opponent. Other times a Phantom Punch drops him in a heap ala Ali/Liston. The question is this: do we want to trust to something that works well only sometimes?"



Maximizing the different types of wounding should behave like a system of equations, which will yield a pretty clear solution. In theory, it's just a matter of getting better models for the types of wounding. But...

The target medium is just as critical to wounding effects as the projectile. With game animals, unless you are always doing straight-on broadside shots on the lungs/heart of similar sized animals, the target medium is so highly variable (ie. bone vs. muscle vs. organ tissue orientations) that mathematical models become very problematic. While they don't tell us everything, maybe they can still tell us something useful.

(Not to mention how differently animals can react depending on their alert status...)
 
What's the SD of an expanded bullet?

frontal area exists and is measurable, and weight exists and measurable....we just aren't doing it....yet ;)

but lets visualize shall we?

lets take a 147 gr 6.5 started life at .264" x .301 sd and lets say it's recovered at .5" x 110 gr and now .063 sd

lets say that recovery distance was 24", we can now get a sectional density reduction rate from that in a per inch format, so .301 - .063 = .238 sd was lost...over 24" is .009 sd per inch sectional density reduction rate (sdrr), or maybe looks better in percentage format 2.9% sdrr over 24"

why stop there?...

one can then also remember the distance of shot for impact velocity so one can then know X amount of energy was there at impact and you can get a rate per inch for that dispersion also

lets say that bullet landed at 2200 fps which is 1580 ftlbs / 24" is 66 ft/lbs per inch energy reduction rate (err), percentage format then 4.1% err over 24"

another thing to look at from the finished bullet would be expansion ratio, 1.9x in this case

there's 4 numbers (sdrr, err, penetration depth, and expansion ratio) right there that if done via a standardized test across all like bullets (big game for example) that could help everyone have the ability to compare everything objectively to anticipate or choose a particular combo for their next adventure, we'd be able to see what combos largely overlap (it's a lot of them), what combos equal other combos at different distances etc.

who knows maybe you have to have 2 impact velocity measures from the testing of each to give a 'window' of impact velocities, and maybe you work these numbers out into percentages to make a little easier for the minds to visualize the differences?

maybe to continue with visualization we look at a 7rm 160 impacting at same velocity and it retains 140 grains only expands 1.75x but goes 36"...carry on to the 375 h&h and compare 300gr solids to 260gr accubonds etc. etc.

to have all the standards we subjectively accept from experiences handed down and personal would then allow us to compare and choose all other options out there, would surely spur some big time development from the manufacturers as we chase the perfect bullets for what we like to do ;)

there are so many answers that lie in the finished bullet but we are not looking at it, seems so obvious to me yet it's not a discussion point you ever see....and 1/5th of the way into the 21st century it baffles me

in this example...which we aren't doing yet...is where I think 'energy' will be able to finally be a reliable and useful measure....but as we currently discuss it...it's a useless figure (to stay on topic ;) ), but that err may be what helps explain to people what to expect for damage inside the animal over that distance, why shooting a deer with a combo is unimpressive in it's internal damage but shoot a moose with the same combo and it's night and day different leaving you scratching your head as to why that is
 
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Maybe they just named the effect ;). Point being; that when velocities crawled out of the black powder era it was quickly noted that something new was going on. Sort of like when I got my mitts on my first STW almost 35 years ago. My first interest in it was for the new to me MPBR of 400 plus with 140s, but that was almost over shadowed by animals going down like the ground got jerked out from underneath them. 140s at 35-3600 fps was an eye opener; almost a #### tabernak moment (to keep the French in the loop;) ). Although it new to me as an observation, Weatherby had been doing that sort of thing since the 40s and talking about it. He wasn't wrong.

like a .204 ruger with 35 gr Bergers on coyotes....matching the impact velocity, sd, and construction...for game intended, instant dead, your STW formula pretty much the same as that .204 to coyote example ;)

it's all in the numbers, you want the lightning dumps...more velocity, less sd, less construction...it still needs to be adequate for game intended, it's not hard to get this out of whack and be short on sd and get the dreaded shallow penetration (shoulder only) etc., so your sdrr and err would be quite high for a standard penetration depth, as well as your expansion ratio, there won't be much bullet left and the work you do over ~24"-30" would be incredible

we are somewhat getting off in the weeds with the more deader faster talk though ;)

end of day many are plenty satisfied with just regular dead :)

fun discussion

I fantasize about a day where all these examples are easily explained with objective data...wish hornady would hire me and give me unlimited gel budget and I'll figure it out.
 
www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/shocking-bullet-performance Quote:

"Clearly, bullet shock works sometimes. But not all times. I’m guessing it’s much like that boxer’s punch. Sometimes what looks like a perfect, knockout punch barely fazes the opponent. Other times a Phantom Punch drops him in a heap ala Ali/Liston. The question is this: do we want to trust to something that works well only sometimes?"



Maximizing the different types of wounding should behave like a system of equations, which will yield a pretty clear solution. In theory, it's just a matter of getting better models for the types of wounding. But...

The target medium is just as critical to wounding effects as the projectile. With game animals, unless you are always doing straight-on broadside shots on the lungs/heart of similar sized animals, the target medium is so highly variable (ie. bone vs. muscle vs. organ tissue orientations) that mathematical models become very problematic. While they don't tell us everything, maybe they can still tell us something useful.

(Not to mention how differently animals can react depending on their alert status...)

The shock they’re talking about, the instant KO, is neurological and a separate but still very useful effect that velocity can help induce.

The substantially greater wounding the FBI discovered with impacts above 2200fps is just discussing tissues, with no consideration to “shock”. They simply found there was far more tissue (vitals) damage for a bullet put in the same place when it was going more than 2200fps. On the flip side there was a sharp cutoff at that point where the effect decreased drastically, when impacts were below 2200fps.

I just want to be clear as many people figure you’re advocating for the central nervous system bang flop effect with higher velocities, it’s a side effect, not the main occurrence. The increased tissue damage over 2200 is reliable and scientifically demonstratable, unlike the KO effect which is hit and miss. Given the KO effect also increases with the velocity of the impact, there’s not a lot of reason to go slow and heavy if you can avoid it.
 
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