Big Game Calibers - Math vs Experiences?

Good clarification, thanks Ardent.

The increased (secondary) wounding effect over 2200fps is not a slam dunk either, though, right? If you hit the shoulder, the effect is different from broadside. This is what I'm getting at when saying that variables within the target medium will throw many mathematical models of wounding off (or out the window).

Slow and heavy does have its "pros", but I think you're right that not many would argue that it consistently kills faster than the "correct" shot placement with the "correct" bullet at the "correct" high velocity.
 
Good clarification, thanks Ardent.

The increased (secondary) wounding effect over 2200fps is not a slam dunk either, though, right? If you hit the shoulder, the effect is different from broadside. This is what I'm getting at when saying that variables within the target medium will throw many mathematical models of wounding off (or out the window).

Slow and heavy does have its "pros", but I think you're right that not many would argue that it consistently kills faster than the "correct" shot placement with the "correct" bullet at the "correct" high velocity.

Slow and heavy needs to be placed right still.
 
Good clarification, thanks Ardent.

The increased (secondary) wounding effect over 2200fps is not a slam dunk either, though, right? If you hit the shoulder, the effect is different from broadside. This is what I'm getting at when saying that variables within the target medium will throw many mathematical models of wounding off (or out the window).

Slow and heavy does have its "pros", but I think you're right that not many would argue that it consistently kills faster than the "correct" shot placement with the "correct" bullet at the "correct" high velocity.

What's a pro for slow and heavy?

Fast and heavy is ideal until you can't take the recoil then it is fast and light is the next best.. as long as you have the correct bullet construction for the velocity and your intended goal.

A 460 weatherby will shoot a 600gr bullet at 2400fps. Or a 375hh will shoot a 300gr bullet at 2400fps

When would it be ideal for that bullet to be going slower? What animal would you be shooting that would die faster or easier with less velocity? Other then recoil or it's to much gun then you could use a smaller cartridge opposed to less fps.
 
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There really isn’t a scenario slow wins if the goal is a quick stop and drop, long as bullet construction is up to the velocity. For meat damage, I absolutely concede slow is better. But it’s better as it does less damage, to be sure.

As for meeting the shoulder rather than heart / lung, speed still does more damage. Hitting bone with a fast bullet definitely doesn’t stop the higher velocity tissue damage, often it actually exacerbates it substantially.

I’ve seen many a jello’d broken goat shoulder quarter, and that was the ideal placement on them to anchor them without them travelling somewhere you don’t want to climb. They have a hell for sturdy shoulder as well compared to regular flatland game.
 
Slow and heavy needs to be placed right still.

Of course, just as much as any.


What's a pro for slow and heavy?....

Honestly, I like 'em all: Fast, slow, heavy, light, all for different reasons.

Lots of people like slow heavies for hunting for lots of different reasons: They are usually fired out of old timey guns, tend to be easy to reload, easy on the ears, damage less meat, and are less likely to spook the animal. I'm sure I'm forgetting some great reasons, maybe others can chime in...
 
...As for meeting the shoulder rather than heart / lung, speed still does more damage. Hitting bone with a fast bullet definitely doesn’t stop the higher velocity tissue damage, often it actually exacerbates it substantially.....



More and more dependent on bullet construction, though, isn't it? Any bullet is going to be a compromise - If you want to maximize primary and secondary wounding in muscle/organ tissue, that's one thing. If you want to be able to pass through a heavy shoulder and then also maximize primary and secondary wounding in muscle/organ tissue, that's something else. Or are there magic bullets after all?

I'm sure you've seen more secondary wounding than most of us. Does it always occur the way you'd expect?
 
Of course, just as much as any.




Honestly, I like 'em all: Fast, slow, heavy, light, all for different reasons.

Lots of people like slow heavies for hunting for lots of different reasons: They are usually fired out of old timey guns, tend to be easy to reload, easy on the ears, damage less meat, and are less likely to spook the animal. I'm sure I'm forgetting some great reasons, maybe others can chime in...

Dude, I know what you are saying there. I cast my own bullets and shoot cast in all my rifles up to my 500 Jeffery. I get why people do it and I had thought we were talking about ability to kill. And with that in mind is why I said there is not really a reason to go below 2400fps when given the choice but yeah if we are talking in general then I can see why people do. I own a few muzzle loaders and ole black powder rifles.

Mead damage is the most obvious, I had a one track mind on killing ability and speed/effectiveness of the death.
 
What's a pro for slow and heavy?

Less bloodshot meat for one.

Heavy, thick skinned dangerous game is probably another. I've no personal experience, but I think it was Finn Aagaard who said that, if he knew he was going to have to stop a charging buffalo, and was given the option of a .378 Weatherby or a .500 Nitro, he would pick the .500 every time.
 
Reason I like slow and heavy bullet’s is less meat damage.

.577-450 and .577 snider are good examples they will both penetrate deeply on thin skinned game and with the right alloy bullet they will expand and stay intact.

.303 with 215gr isn’t the slowest but it does the trick.

A lot of the older BPE cartridges are a great example of slow and heavy their not really meant for thick skinned dangerous game(buffalo,rhino,hippo,elephant) but do really well on thinner skinned game.
 
I like slow and heavy at close range in thick cover. While Calling elk my favorite is a 45-70 405 gr cast at 1650fps. High shoulder shots dump bulls right where they stand more often than not. No meat damage either. I have shot/ watched bulls at close range with a plethora of calibers and cartridges and nothing is as consistent in my experience. At ranges from 100-500 there are much better choices but at bow distance big heavy and slow with bone crushing capabilities just works. I tested that 45-70 load on water jugs and got through all 9 jugs I had filled and set up. I dug one out of the berm on my range and it had penetrated 13 inches of clay before stopping. I will say many if not most of the elk dropped required a coup de grace to finish them but they sure dont get back up to run off before you get a chance to finish them.
 
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The shock they’re talking about, the instant KO, is neurological and a separate but still very useful effect that velocity can help induce.

The substantially greater wounding the FBI discovered with impacts above 2200fps is just discussing tissues, with no consideration to “shock”. They simply found there was far more tissue (vitals) damage for a bullet put in the same place when it was going more than 2200fps. On the flip side there was a sharp cutoff at that point where the effect decreased drastically, when impacts were below 2200fps.

I just want to be clear as many people figure you’re advocating for the central nervous system bang flop effect with higher velocities, it’s a side effect, not the main occurrence. The increased tissue damage over 2200 is reliable and scientifically demonstratable, unlike the KO effect which is hit and miss. Given the KO effect also increases with the velocity of the impact, there’s not a lot of reason to go slow and heavy if you can avoid it.

That instant down neurological drink box thingy is a nerve plexus basically in front of the fore legs. Down like the hammer of Thor, so much nerve receptors pain the brain shuts down.....a instant coma, never knew what hit him.

To the big and fast, knock down. My 375 rum pushing a 260 partition at 3050ft/sec. I have three 270's, and a 6.8 spc, and the Rum.....3x 270, half 270, double 270......the rum pushing double 130gr at 270 velocity.
 
we are somewhat getting off in the weeds with the more deader faster talk though

Are we though?

No matter how you look at it if a person has given thought to his cartridge and bullet choice, worked on his marksmanship, studied bullet placement, hunting areas, and whether the shot is feasible it's all part of a plan.

If the plan culminates in a shot there are any number of out-comes, and there is no certainty that you get what you want. I'll list some from A to where-ever I end up. I hope that there a rough progression to the order.

a) Animal drops instantly, and appears for all realistic purposes to be instantly dead. Hard to beat that result from humane, recovery and pride of workmanship points of view.

b) Down instantly, but lived for a bit. It died before you got to at least and you might not kow the difference.

c) Obviously hit hard, might move a bit before it decides which way to fall over.

d) Runs but shows signs of wilting and piles up in short order. Never left your sight but there was just that second of doubt.

e) Takes off like a bat out of hell, but drops in sight. Cue sigh of relief.

f) c, d and e but requiring a second shot when you get there. Ain't great, but these things happen.

Lets put A through F in the general category of "shooting it then going to get it."

Next there's the vast field of what I call "Shooting it then going to look for it". I've had people tell me with a straight face that their plan starts here; often solemnly proclaiming that just about everything runs and that's just the way it is. Doesn't seem like a great plan A to me, so its a good thing we're already at G.

g) G as in gee; I know I hit it but it didn't look all that sick before it got out of sight. Gee; as in I hope there's a blood trail and I can actually find it. G as in gee it's a long walk with a knot in your stomach.

h) Same as G, but there was no visible or audible confirmation of a hit. You have nothing except the sure knowledge that you could have made that shot on the worst day of your life to go on. You have that right? Right? I know it's hard to talk when the knot in your stomach feels like a curling rock. Nod your head if you have that. Remember to breath, its a damn long walk holding your breath.

i) You find a great and short blood trail, and a suitably dead animal.

j) You don't find blood and start casting about in the general direction it ran, then everywhere else with hope fading and that knot turning into a ulcer. It may still turn out well, but that doubt is sown. After a time you start to wonder about your shot, and shortly after that start hoping you missed. Minutes turn into hours. Day turns into night. Night turns into tomorrow.

k) K; you did get onto a trail but its meager. It makes up for it's meagerness with length though. Also you can't convince yourself you missed because you have proof you didn't. It might work out, but it could turn into a swamp where no-one could track, or somewhere you can't go, or just get dark.

l) using Angus's example, your goat (lets say its a goat) goes somewhere where you can't retrieve it. 'Course you'll likely have to climb down, up and sideways through gut busting terrain looking for something that you don't even know is there before you prove that you can't have it anyway. Tracking is a fantasy.

M-Z) Insert your own worst nightmares here.


I don't think "more deader faster" is getting off in the weeds at all. I'm a big fan of outcome A and B myself but A-F is all in the "shoot it and go get it class". Not a big fan of anything in the "shoot it and go look for it" class, although "i" isn't as bad.
 
In my experience the only thing that kills instantly is a head shot there will be nervous system twitches ect but it’s dead.

Boiler room they can go a bit there was that video on youtube of the deer hit with a .50 bmg and it still tried to run.

I’m a fan of tired and true that said most of my deer hunting has been done with a crossbow. Shot placement and bullet construction matter more than anything. .22lr has probably killed more things then people really should be trying to kill with such a small round.

One thing I will never advocate for in North America is a headshot this leads to horrible wounds that will leave an animal to suffer. Hunters should put the bullet in the boiler room on any game as a first option and passing any iffy shots.
 
Dogleg, can you give us a TL/DR version? ;)

I agree with you though, there are many ways that things can go down. "Faster dead" is certainly an outcome that most of us prefer, as long as it doesn't come at too great a cost: Rifle weight/length, noise, recoil, meat damage, need for difficult shot placement, need for overly specialized ammunition, cost of rifle and ammunition, etc.. Everybody has a different list of priorities.
 
More and more dependent on bullet construction, though, isn't it? Any bullet is going to be a compromise - If you want to maximize primary and secondary wounding in muscle/organ tissue, that's one thing. If you want to be able to pass through a heavy shoulder and then also maximize primary and secondary wounding in muscle/organ tissue, that's something else. Or are there magic bullets after all?

I'm sure you've seen more secondary wounding than most of us. Does it always occur the way you'd expect?

With the majority yea, said before I can’t recall a specific utter bullet failure. I’ve seen them do less than the goal, but perform generally in keeping with their construction. I’ve seen a TSX all but fall to expand, tiny tip petals, recovered only because of the size of the animal [cape buffalo]. Seen another one shot into the same animal fragment the front completely off, either would have proved the fatal shot all on their own, but the recovery would have slid down Dogleg’s scale from a B to an F. I will say as monos go slower their reliability of expanding and effects diminished substantially, no surprises there.

There’s been the cheap Fed blue box SPs that I used extensively, including on a softer of the big five and wild bison. They worked dozens of times, sometimes were a bit soft, but never ‘failed’. Worst I’ve probably had on game I shot myself was a Speed Hot Cor 235gr from a .375 on a Zebra. I had to do the G) off Dogleg’s list, go walking, sowing doubt on my bullet following a diminishing blood trail, hoping, starting to feel terrible and question what I was doing and why I packed SP 235s. Turns out I’d shot it too far back, it was all on me. Anyone who’s looked at a Zebra stalked in elephant grass will understand how it can happen.

On the secondary wounding, I advocated and told clients to pack a top quality hunting bullet from their favourite manufacturer. We had A-Frames, Partitions (rarer now as BCs gain buying importance), Accubonds, DGXs for grizz, TSXs and TTSXs, GMXs, CEBs, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, lots of Norma Oryx with the Euro crowd… all did relatively the same thing. We have our preferences and mine was lead free, I liked leaving a lead free gut pile out there, and monos on my preferred shoulder shot did wonders.

On those shoulder shots, the secondary wounding was impressive long as they were going proper fast. Jello’d shoulders and bone fragments on goats with the fast .270WSMs & .300s were typical, not what those looking to maximize their meat poundage returned from the butcher look for and I totally get that. We got far less of that with the loaner 7x57 and .308, though it was still present inside a couple hundred yards with 120s-140s in 7x57 and 130s-150s in .308. Everyone has a different take but mine is, the faster it’s going the more damage you get, and the faster it’s going and the bigger the animal is, the stiffer the bullet you load.

You nailed it I haven’t found a magic bullet yet. I thought the CEBs could be it and still have a theory on a design that would help, but in the end all have proven remarkably comparable. Speed mattered most within reason more than weight, more than construction, far more than diameter.
 
Dogleg, can you give us a TL/DR version? ;)

a) Instadead

b) Dead Right There

c) Ran a little, but dead

d) Ran a bit, but dead

e) Ran quite a bit, but dead

f) c, d and e +1 bang

g) Ran lots. Where is it?

h) Ran like hell. My guts feel weird.

i) Blood. Oh look, there he is!

j) Where's the blood? Where's the trail. Dammit!

k) Jesus, this is a crappy blood trail...and long!

l) It's where? Well I'm well and truly effed!

M-Z) *insert increasingly long strings of profanity here*
 
Interesting fact here, only on moose so far, shot a bunch of moose over the years with 30-06 and using same bullets same velocity at roughly same distances shot in the same place(vitals) some dropped in there tracks with one shot, some dropped in there tracks with 2 shots, some walked a few steps and dropped… one walked a fair bit needed a total of 4-5 shots before he hit the ground!!
 
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