I just bought a 308 garand and am ignorant

[Sharps45-70]

I agree with what purple has noted here. I built a 30-06 M1 for service rifle matches using a match grade barrel and as many NM parts as I could. I experimented with a very wide range of bullets from 130 grain to 220 grain, using an adjustable gas plug to help tune accuracy and cycling.

The rifles love the 150 - 168 range for the most part. For the longer range matches, I would shoot Barnes 175 match burners and the rifle was phenomenal with those over top of Varget. If you're really going to be pushing hot loads, IMO the adjustable plug is a must. If you're keeping it within the normal Garand pressures, the standard plug is fine. Keep in mind, this is from the perspective of a match shooter who wanted the most out of my rifle.

For accuracy, keep parts greased liberally and refrain from taking the action from the stock. Clean the action in place if you can. The more clamping, unclamping, and removal you do, the looser the whole thing becomes. My rifle was just under 2 MOA with irons, though if it were scoped or with diopters, I think 1.5 would have been achievable. The 308 rifles are inherently more accurate due to case fill volumes leading to better ES and SD numbers. It was noted when the NM shooters in the states switches calibers that there was a noticeable improvement in match scores, all other factors remaining equal.

 

[Jahnj0584]

Some of you guys got caught in the weeds. Nowhere did I say I was reloading for it, but rather can I safely and long-termed-ly shoot factory 180gr ammo out of it? Not sure why pressure would change with a heavier bullet, isn't the powder load the same?

I got to shoot it tonight at 100 and 200y. These are 50% torso targets I cut myself.

Pink sticker is 100y on the Battle Zero - seems to be perfect. I had one click to the right for windage and brought it in true.

Orange was shot on Battle (group on right) and then I clicked it up into the "100" setting and was pretty well bang-on into the orange. Shot about 1.75MOA both times which is pretty good, I think. I hardly shoot irons and am not used to this gun/trigger/recoil as Im mostly a 22lr guy.





What a pretty gun!

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Some of you guys got caught in the weeds. Nowhere did I say I was reloading for it, but rather can I safely and long-termed-ly shoot factory 180gr ammo out of it? Not sure why pressure would change with a heavier bullet, isn't the powder load the same?

Uhh ... no.

Garands are sensitive to pressure curve of the ammo and the wrong ammo can and eventually will bend the op-rod.

 

[tiriaq]

Some of you guys got caught in the weeds. Nowhere did I say I was reloading for it, but rather can I safely and long-termed-ly shoot factory 180gr ammo out of it? Not sure why pressure would change with a heavier bullet, isn't the powder load the same?

The powder load is not the same. The powder load will vary with manufacturer, bullet weight and powder lot available. Factories develop their loads to give the desired velocity with pressures within safe limits.
Generally speaking, they are not loading cartridges with an eye to the pressures an inch or so back from the muzzle.
When I bought my first M-1, many years ago, the only .30-06 ammunition I could get was Dominion 180gr round nose. It would not cycle the action - not enough gas port pressure.
Ammunition you buy might produce too little, just right, or too much pressure at the gas port.
That is why some are suggesting getting an adjustable gas plug. With the adjustable plug, you can tailor the setting to get the sweet spot for a given load.

 

[hobophobe]

Bullet weight, speed and powder charge all play a role. They weren't designed for 180 grain hunting ammo. They were designed for military ball pressures.


Any other well known advice you'd care not to listen too for the umpteenth time?

 

[Jahnj0584]

I asked a question and only tiriaq even tried to answer it. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't help when i specifically asked WHY does a heavier bullet cause more pressure? I didnt say "ok so I'll go shoot 180gr now"

 

[tiriaq]

The operating rod is driven back by the gas pressure at the gas port. The pressure at the gas port is not related to bullet weight. Depending on the powder used, a light bullet could have higher port pressure than a heavy bullet - or vice versa.
The operating rod receives a sharp blow. If there is insufficient energy, the rifle will not cycle. If there is too much energy, the action gets hammered and the rod can be damaged. If the port pressure is in the correct range, the rifle cycles smoothly.
You aren't handloading. So you need to find factory ammunition that is suitable. The first load that comes to mind is NATO equivalent ball.
Your rifle is an issue Italian Type 2? Then it is 7.62x51. If you want to hunt with it, I would suggest .308 150gr with a good expanding bullet. But you'll have to try it to make sure it works properly - you have no way of knowing what the port pressure is.
Accuracy? Lots of variables. 2 - 3 minutes would not be unreasonable. Might do better. If worse, find out why.
My M-1 was rebarreled with a NM 7.62 barrel, NM bedded, etc. With quality handloads (155gr SMKs), it will shoot 1 1/2 minutes or a bit less.
Don't worry about sight calibrations. Zero it and record the settings. Helps if the windage is centered. Record your elevations at different ranges.

 

[Potashminer]

There is some previously fired 30-06 brass here. Head stamp says "30-M1", then "FC 11" - is also some ending in "14" and "17". Very much 30-06 size and shape although head stamp does not say that. Some Internet googling says that was a line of ammo that Federal made (or makes?) for the M1 type rifles in 30-06 - these are all previously fired cases, so I have no clue what bullet weight was originally loaded in them - I presume it was at least marketed as a specific loading for M1 type rifles - which should have addressed the "port pressure" issue mentioned above. Does not help you for 7.62 NATO, but maybe lends credence to the "port pressure" issue. That "port pressure" is not anything that I have had to accommodate - most all of my centre fire reloading has been for bolt action, pump action or recoil operated semi-auto rifles - I have never reloaded for the M1 type of rifle. A correspondent who DOES reload for his various M1 and Norinco M305 rifles tells me that is an entire aspect of reloads that I will not have experienced - even the powder that you chose to use becomes important - to get that "port pressure" within what that rifle wants to see. I have not tried to reload any of these yet - appears that the primer might have a circular crimp around - so they likely need to be swaged to seat a new primer?

 

[tiriaq]

There are very popular M-1 matches in the US. Camp Perry hosts some. That ammunition is made specifically for use in M-1 rifles, and avoids issues of availability of suitable ammunition. There is all sorts of .30-06 ammunition made, not all of it appropriate for use in a Garand. I've never heard of factory .308 ammunition intended for the M-1.
A lot of handloading for M-1 information is available from US sources.

 

[big bear]

There are very popular M-1 matches in the US. Camp Perry hosts some. That ammunition is made specifically for use in M-1 rifles, and avoids issues of availability of suitable ammunition. There is all sorts of .30-06 ammunition made, not all of it appropriate for use in a Garand. I've never heard of factory .308 ammunition intended for the M-1.
A lot of handloading for M-1 information is available from US sources.

PRIVI makes some 30'06 specifically designed to be safe in Garand and the boxes so labelled. I have never seen any commercial ammo specifically marketed for 308 Garands. Lots of knowledgeable fellows on here have suggested Federal Blue box 150gr hunting ammo was fine inn their norinco M14s . I suspect that would probably hold true with a Garand in 308.As 308 Garand operating rods are not readily available I would not risk wrecking my op rod trying to shoot commercial hunting ammo in a rifle not designed to shoot such ammo. But, your rifle, your money. When hunting ammo with the wrong pressure curve bends your operating rod you may reconsider reloading.

 

[cosmic]

I asked a question and only tiriaq even tried to answer it. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't help when i specifically asked WHY does a heavier bullet cause more pressure? I didnt say "ok so I'll go shoot 180gr now"

Since you are not a reloader, and profess to be ignorant, we'll try to dumb down the answer a bit. A heavier bullet has more inertia, thus generating a greater amount of force (aka pressure) to get it moving down the barrel. This greater pressure can cause grief in a semi like the Garand.

 

[purple]

The range of bullet weights used by the US Army for MILSPEC .30-06 ammo ranged from 150gr M2 ball, 165gr AP, and 172gr Match. MILSPEC propellant was IMR 4895.

I've fired thousands of safe, accurate and reliable handloads in a variety of Garands with 150, 155, 165, 168 and 172 gr bullets and IMR 4895 and IMR 4064. There's really no point in embarking on voyages of discovery outside of these parameters.

There are caveats on handloading for the Garand including using the above propellants and bullet weights, always FL resizing, seating primers at or below flush with the casehead, keeping cases trimmed below max length and limiting brass to no more than 4-5 cycles. The same applies to .308/7.62 Garands.

BTW, the magazine spacer block used in .308/7.62 Garands has nothing to do with functionality. It simply prevents longer .30-06 ammo from being clip loaded.

 

[Potashminer]

A correspondent who has put together more than a few M1 Garands tells me that the Kuhnhausen Manual says 12,000 psi for M1 Garand in 30-06 as port pressure, and 17,000 psi for 7.62 NATO in the M14. I have no clue how a home guy is supposed to measure that. He tells me that Criterian barrels made for the 7.62 NATO conversion of M1 Garand have a smaller port hole than does the same brand of new barrels for 30-06 - but the Italian military conversions to 7.62 NATO used 30-06 military barrels and made no alterations to the barrel ports, other than to shorten the barrels.

 

[just having some fun]

A correspondent who has put together more than a few M1 Garands tells me that the Kuhnhausen Manual says 12,000 psi for M1 Garand in 30-06 as port pressure, and 17,000 psi for 7.62 NATO in the M14. I have no clue how a home guy is supposed to measure that. He tells me that Criterian barrels made for the 7.62 NATO conversion of M1 Garand have a smaller port hole than does the same brand of new barrels for 30-06 - but the Italian military conversions used 30-06 military barrels and made no alterations to the barrel ports, other than to shorten the barrels.

I have been using GRT and 12k for the M1 Garand is on the high side ( may be a Max Number that will work that Probably reduces life expectancy of a m1

.... I have used loads that GRT predict port pressure at 9-10k at the 22-1/2 mark that function

308 loads GRT predict app 18k at the 11 inch mark that function in the 308 M1 garand = 9-10k at M1 gas port

Use of a MAX BOLT GUN LOAD using the wrong powder will exceed the above pressures and should not be done in a m1

 

[zelly]

Just buy a couple cans of norinco 308 and feed those thru it all day long.

 

[purple]

I have been using GRT and 12k for the M1 Garand is on the high side ( may be a Max Number that will work that Probably reduces life expectancy of a m1

.... I have used loads that GRT predict port pressure at 9-10k at the 22-1/2 mark that function

308 loads GRT predict app 18k at the 11 inch mark that function in the 308 M1 garand = 9-10k at M1 gas port

Use of a MAX BOLT GUN LOAD using the wrong powder will exceed the above pressures and should not be done in a m1

Ok, I'll bite. What is GRT, and how do you measure gas port pressure?

 

[Ganderite]

I asked a question and only tiriaq even tried to answer it. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't help when i specifically asked WHY does a heavier bullet cause more pressure? I didnt say "ok so I'll go shoot 180gr now"

Good question.

In general, light bullets are loaed with faster powder than heavy bullets.

For example, 3031 is perfect for 150 gr and 4350 (a slower powder) is better for 180 gr.

The slow powder develops pressure longer. So it gives a higher impulse at the gas port. This what bends the op rod.

Don't ty it to see what happens. At last count 396,285 guys ahead of you have already done it.

I can guarantee that any hunting 150 gr bullet will be quite deadly on deer. In fact, I could make a good argument that 150 would be better than 180gr. That said, I personally use 180 gr on deer because 150 is so destructive.

The 150 is flat shooting, so if you zero at 100, you are good to go at any practical distance you care to shoot with those iron sights. Which, in my opinion, are the best iron sights of any military rifle ever made.

You should buy three boxes of different 150 gr ammo, and test them for cycling and accuracy. Be prepared to ditch a brand that is too violent with the bolt. An ammo make could use slow powder for a light bullet.

 

[just having some fun]

Ok, I'll bite. What is GRT, and how do you measure gas port pressure?

GRT = Gordon Reloading Tool ( think Quick load )

 

[L.Parratt]

The rifle was designed for 150-gr M2 FMJ bullets.

This 100% isn't true at all. The rifle was designed around a 174gr Load. M1 Ball.

M2AP (168gr) and M72 Match (173gr) were used throughout its entire service life.

 

[RifleDude]

This 100% isn't true at all. The rifle was designed around a 174gr Load. M1 Ball.

M2AP (168gr) and M72 Match (173gr) were used throughout its entire service life.

Bingo!! The M1 Garand was indeed designed with the M1 Ball 30-06 in mind (boat-tailed). John Garand designed his rifle in 1922 but it took until the early thirties before his rifle was finally accepted by the US Army Ordnance Board. At that time, the current version of the 30-06 round was the M1. The later M2 round used a 152gr (flat based) bullet at higher velocity and was not adopted until 1938. The external ballistics were very similar between the two to allow sight setting to be the same for all rifles in use chambered for the 30-06 round at the time. M1 and M2 rounds were used interchangebly well into WWII.

I have used hand loads using 148 gr to 180 gr bullets in my M1 without any problems. Keeping in mind, not to load to maximum pressures. I've also used 4895, 4064 and Varget without any problems in my loads.