Suther, were you able to resolve the issue with your .22? If so, curious what the cause/solution was.
Savage Axis II XP in 308 - Is It the Scope, The Gun...or Me?
- Thread starter thegazelle
- Start date
Suther, were you able to resolve the issue with your .22? If so, curious what the cause/solution was.
It won't be of any help to you, but you asked so sure. It was an iron sights issue. Was shooting high even with the rear sight as low as it could go, like 6" high at 50m. My eyes aren't great so hitting a 2" spinner at 50 isn't easy when my sights are on, nevermind off by half a foot lol
I'm going to try standard velocity ammo to see if that helps (only shot 1200+fps stuff that day) otherwise I'm going to have to throw an optic on it. I was probably going to put an optic on the gun anyways (Winchester Wildcat, it has a built in pic rail) but I wanted to get the sights zero'd first...
I am impressed with 6" high at 50m. I can't see worth squat so I can't iron sight anything beyond 25m, and that's being generous. I remember taking my SKS to the 50 yard distance and it must have been the equivalent to "pray and spray" time. I blame it on my old man eyes, but I suspect if I was 30 years younger, I'd be in the same boat.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
As per posts above - you are not likely to fix anything until you figure out what is wrong - so, if no holes at 25 yards, then try at 10 yards - have to get holes somewhere - just for starters - are three in a row close to each other, or all over the paper - and so on - all can be caused by various things - as described, you could have sub MOA going on - 3 feet to the side - could have 25 MOA going on - centered on target - very different things to look at for those two examples. And do not overlook that it could be the gear that needs fixing, or it could be the shooter that needs a "tune-up" - for sure, is good thing to bring along at least one other rifle, and satisfy yourself that you are not the issue ...
Maybe take a cue from target shooting guys - they almost always have a "spotter" - who's job it is is to watch for and see "splash" - where did that shot go, since nothing showed up on the target. A good spotter will walk you right in to the centre.
Maybe take a cue from target shooting guys - they almost always have a "spotter" - who's job it is is to watch for and see "splash" - where did that shot go, since nothing showed up on the target. A good spotter will walk you right in to the centre.
Dude - This whole investigation is inconclusive because you are uncertain if your buddy was able to boresight it. Before you diddle with anything, try boresighting it yourself with your eyes. You can do this at home easily enough - put a suitable target up in the back yard at, say, 15-25 yards. Boresight through a window or sliding door so the neighbours arent offended. I'll bet you a beverage of choice you'll find the problem.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
You do not need "fancy" or expensive stuff to do as cosmic suggests in Post #25 - just a cardboard box on a table - cut a pair of "V" - something to hold the rifle still without your hands on it - slide box around until rifle pointed at something - line it up by looking down the bore - centre whatever within that hole - then without jiggling the rifle - take a peek where the scope's cross hairs are pointed - adjust the cross hairs until they are pointed where the bore is pointed - then go to shoot - is about that simple to "bore sight" - do not need lasers, etc. - simply done with your eyes looking down that bore and then through the scope. But usually want to be "hands off" - completely - to do that. Some people have enough sand bags they can do the same thing - do not need a box - just need something that will hold the rifle to be still, once you let go of it. Do the steps - adjust scope - check again - might need to repeat several times to "fine tune" that scope ... Tell us what you get from three slow deliberate "for all the money" shots, aimed at same place, fired from a good rest with only the rifle's stock or back of your hands contacting the rest - do NOT have anything external touching that barrel.
And do not bother to try if you are in a "rush" - take your time for this - what you get out of it, will be pretty much equivalent to what you put in to it.
Doing the above - I have never had first hole NOT on 18" x 18" paper at 25 paces. Often my "target" is wider and taller than that - big target is better, when we really do not know what to expect - new scope to rifle, new bases and / or new rings, new barrel, new-to-me outfit, etc.
And do not bother to try if you are in a "rush" - take your time for this - what you get out of it, will be pretty much equivalent to what you put in to it.
Doing the above - I have never had first hole NOT on 18" x 18" paper at 25 paces. Often my "target" is wider and taller than that - big target is better, when we really do not know what to expect - new scope to rifle, new bases and / or new rings, new barrel, new-to-me outfit, etc.
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Boresighting is both incredibly easy to do and a total pain in the ass, depending on what you have for equipment. If you don't have anything that can hold the rifle nice and steady so you can look down the bore, then adjust the scope, then look down the bore, then adjust the scope again you're more likely to get frustrated than anything. When I boresight at home I clamp the rifle down so it can't go anywhere. At the range it is much harder unless you've got something like a clamping tripod.
How short can you go at your range? Hard to not be on paper at 10yds...
How short can you go at your range? Hard to not be on paper at 10yds...
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I was able to bore sight two of my rifles by resting it on a laundry basket flipped upside down on the bed, putting a piece of green masking tape on the wall 20 feet away and carefully adjusting the scope cross hair to the tape. Didnt take much to field adjust them after. Its tricky peaking down the bore as straight as you can and not touching the rifle after you get the sweet spot, or moving it while adjusting the scope. But, not to hard.
It is a fiddly operation to be sure, but boresighting as described above can still be done quite effectively. Did it that way for years, always able to get onto a 8x11 sheet of paper at 50 yards and often at 100. Just gotta hold it perfectly still while doing so.
But I will point out that if you have a laser available, and it sounds like you do...you can boresight while standing up holding the rifle at your shoulder after drinking a pot of coffee and eating a box of Skittles. Step outside at dusk, install the laser and switch it on, project the laser dot onto something 50-ish yards away, look through the scope, and adjust the crosshair to intersect with the dot, or perhaps a bit above it (depends on the cartridge). Doesn't matter if both the dot and crosshairs are dancing all over the target; their relationship to one another will be fixed, changed only by your scope adjustments.
Lots of shooters like to pooh-pooh the lasers, much preferring to squint and sweat and swear as they peer down the barrel. Gets really ugly when they try to boresight a lever gun or something else that makes looking down the barrel problematic. I'm not a techie guy, not even close...but, for bore-sighting, lasers rock!
But I will point out that if you have a laser available, and it sounds like you do...you can boresight while standing up holding the rifle at your shoulder after drinking a pot of coffee and eating a box of Skittles. Step outside at dusk, install the laser and switch it on, project the laser dot onto something 50-ish yards away, look through the scope, and adjust the crosshair to intersect with the dot, or perhaps a bit above it (depends on the cartridge). Doesn't matter if both the dot and crosshairs are dancing all over the target; their relationship to one another will be fixed, changed only by your scope adjustments.
Lots of shooters like to pooh-pooh the lasers, much preferring to squint and sweat and swear as they peer down the barrel. Gets really ugly when they try to boresight a lever gun or something else that makes looking down the barrel problematic. I'm not a techie guy, not even close...but, for bore-sighting, lasers rock!
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Tight or torqued? One of the best things you can buy for piece of mind is a torque screwdriver, the Wheeler fat wrench is good bang for the buck. Then you know it’s properly torqued. Check the bases/rail mounting holes for alignment, check to see if the barrel is free floating if that’s how it’s supposed to come from the factory.
When I get a new to me rifle I will pull it apart and clean it, bases or rail comes off and I re torque everything (action screws, bases or rail. Base/rail screws get a dab of blue loctite.) to factory specs and start off from there. Same with rings when mounting, if it’s easy to pull a bolt I visually bore sight it at 50 or 100y. If it’s a semi I’ll laser bore sight it at 25 or 50y, I’ve yet to have this fail to get me on paper.
NC star would be .22 rings if I didn’t have anything else, flashlight mount most likely. If I’m looking for something that won’t break the bank I go with Burris Zee rings, a reasonably priced steel ring. Have never had a set fail me, or Leupold PRW rings if I can find a set.
I don’t own any Savage’s but the axis is generally a rifle that shoots well, so unless yours is just a lemon there’s something else that’s causing the issue. If the rifle is set up properly and everything is torqued to spec I’d start looking at the scope.
Shortest distance at my outdoor range is 25 yards.
Yes, I have a FAT wrench and typically on a new install, I torque it per inch/pounds specs. In the case of this thing, I set it to 30 inch pounds and it was tight on that since there was nothing in the Savage manual about the scope.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Good, good. Your rings maker should have numbers for torque, 15-18 in/lb or up to 20 depending.
I’ve been using one of those Tipton gun butler’s, works reasonably well to cradle a rifle for mounting optics and bore sighting. Depending on the rifle I will have to stuff a rolled up cloth under the front V to get it horizontally level or where I need it to be to bore sight. I’m sure a long enough cardboard box with some cutouts for the buttstock and forend/barrel would work just as well.
Thanks for the tips. I am not entirely sure who the ring makers are, but then again I didn't really look at that closely. The scope came with the rings and was pre-mounted from the factory. I seem to recall with my previous Vortex rings on another rifle that it was 30 for the base and 15 for the rings, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I will see if I can find this out. The base are a set of two pieces of weaver/picatinny mounts, which I presume came with the rifle.
I do have a set of Caldwell range bags - a v shaped smaller bag and a chunkier bigger bag. That may help. I have seen those Gun Butlers online and may get one one day - I don't have a defined or dedicated workbench so if I were to use it, it would go on and off my kitchen table, which I am sure will be much to the chagrin of the kids!
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Have used my Caldwell bags to recheck bore sighted rifle at the range before shooting them, you should be gtg. I’ve got a $99 3-9x40 Banner on a .303 and it’s held up well so far, hopefully you get it sorted out easily. Always frustrating when things like that happen, the gun butler is not bad. Cheap but it works well for what I use it for, which is mainly cleaning and the occasional scope mounting. Worth it if you see it on sale, found mine at a garage sale a few years back.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
It is a fiddly operation to be sure, but boresighting as described above can still be done quite effectively. Did it that way for years, always able to get onto a 8x11 sheet of paper at 50 yards and often at 100. Just gotta hold it perfectly still while doing so.
But I will point out that if you have a laser available, and it sounds like you do...you can boresight while standing up holding the rifle at your shoulder after drinking a pot of coffee and eating a box of Skittles. Step outside at dusk, install the laser and switch it on, project the laser dot onto something 50-ish yards away, look through the scope, and adjust the crosshair to intersect with the dot, or perhaps a bit above it (depends on the cartridge). Doesn't matter if both the dot and crosshairs are dancing all over the target; their relationship to one another will be fixed, changed only by your scope adjustments.
Lots of shooters like to pooh-pooh the lasers, much preferring to squint and sweat and swear as they peer down the barrel. Gets really ugly when they try to boresight a lever gun or something else that makes looking down the barrel problematic. I'm not a techie guy, not even close...but, for bore-sighting, lasers rock!
My one and only experience with a laser bore sight thing that went into the rifle chamber lead me to not even try them any more - if you rotated the laser thing in the chamber - it would point to a different place. Maybe newest ones are made better. But, since most all of my rifles are bolt action, I remove the bolt and squint down the bore when installing a scope - bore sight with my eye.
I do have semi-auto .22 and lever action rifles - but they worked out "close enough" to be on large cardboard - just need to visually see that it "looks about right" when mounted, and then start with target to be "close" - if no holes, get closer, until I get holes on the target - align from there - and work your way back out to distance. Is my practice to fire at least twice - more commonly three times, before making an adjustment - I want to see that the system is actually working correctly - and that gives me some clue about the accuracy capability of me, that rifle and that scope installation. No point to continue if getting three holes 5 inches apart at 25 yards or less - something is very wrong with me, that rifle or that scope - simply not going to get that "sighted in" at 100 yards or wherever. But you will not know that, unless you took at least those first three deliberate, careful shots - for most guns / most shooters you will likely end up with a single hole - or perhaps a "lumpy" single hole at 25 yards or less, from a solid rest.
Is a thing that confounds some, I think - I believe is only very last perhaps caliber distance in the barrel, and the condition of the muzzle (and the base of the bullet) that determine where the bullet will go - the rest of that 18", 22", 26" barrel is just going to build velocity - does not actually have much to do with where the bullet goes once it leaves the barrel - so you actually have to fire the thing on a target to know where the bullet goes - so "bore sighting" does NOT tell you that - its purpose is to help you to get holes on the paper - actually have to fire rounds, to know where the next one will likely go.
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For absolutely painless bore sighting on your Tipton Gun Vise buy this: "Bushnell Professional Bore Sight Kit with Case, Black" from amazon.ca. I bought this kit a few years ago and since then all my problems with bore sighting are solved. This is one of the items I can classify as "money well spent". After doing the bore sighting procedure a few times, now it takes me like 5-7 minutes to boresight ANY rifle from .22LR to .45cal. This is preliminary bore sighting after which you have to precisely sight in your scope at 25 yards. The first POI at 25y will be shifted about 1/2-1" from the POA. The rest you do by adjusting the scope knobs.
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I've never owned one that goes into the chamber, but the couple of times I have played with that type belonging to buddies, I had nothing but problems. The one(s) I have now are very inexpensive...Sightmark brand, I think?...and are held magnetically to the muzzle. The first one worked so beautifully that when I saw a deal on them I bought another. Every time I use one of them, I rotate it 360 degrees on the muzzle and watch the dot, looking for either a problem with the laser or perhaps a poorly-cut muzzle. I have never experienced a problem.
For absolutely painful bore sighting on your Tipton Gun Vise buy this: "Bushnell Professional Bore Sight Kit with Case, Black" from amazon.ca. I bought this kit a few years ago and since then all my problems with bore sighting are solved. This is one of the items I can classify as "money well spent". After doing the bore sighting procedure a few times, now it takes me like 5-7 minutes to boresight ANY rifle from .22LR to .45cal. This is preliminary bore sighting after which you have to precisely sight in your scope at 25 yards. The first POI at 25y will be shifted about 1/2-1" from the POA. The rest you do by adjusting the scope knobs.
I'm guessing you meant "painless" rather than "painful"...if you want you boresighting to be painful there are plenty of ways to achieve that for free.
I agree that the muzzle-mounted boresighters are the way to go, versus the chamber-inserted lasers. I don't like the idea of jamming arbors into the bore and much prefer the magnetic mount as described above. Leupold made (maybe still makes?) a magnetic mounting one with an etched glass screen that you view through your scope. I still have one of those as well; to this day, when I use it I can't really figure out how it works...but it does work! No batteries, and again, easily used even with the gun shouldered.
Boresighters aren't expensive. Ammo is. Frustration also has a cost, although it's harder to quantify.
OP, I paid less than $50 for my first laser, and liked it so much that I bought another identical one for $30 when I found it on sale. How much did the ammo you wasted cost?
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I'm guessing you meant "painless" rather than "painful"...if you want you boresighting to be painful there are plenty of ways to achieve that for free.
Corrected. Thanks. It sometimes happens with aging.
