Savage Axis II XP in 308 - Is It the Scope, The Gun...or Me?

[jjohnwm]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[Grizzlypeg]

Bore sighting visually ought to get the left and right close enough to hit a target at 25 yards. It's the elevation that is trickier and either requires a spotter for the splash, or a larger piece of paper to catch where its hitting. If there is something wonky with the scope or mounts, such that the point of impact is all over the place, you should be able to spot that by reconfirming the bore sighting after a shot. Is it still sighed to the same point? Bore sight it on something as far away as possible to improve accuracy.

 

[thegazelle]

For absolutely painless bore sighting on your Tipton Gun Vise buy this: "Bushnell Professional Bore Sight Kit with Case, Black" from amazon.ca. I bought this kit a few years ago and since then all my problems with bore sighting are solved. This is one of the items I can classify as "money well spent". After doing the bore sighting procedure a few times, now it takes me like 5-7 minutes to boresight ANY rifle from .22LR to .45cal. This is preliminary bore sighting after which you have to precisely sight in your scope at 25 yards. The first POI at 25y will be shifted about 1/2-1" from the POA. The rest you do by adjusting the scope knobs.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have ordered! For the cost I am expecting this to move mountains...lol

 

[thegazelle]

My one and only experience with a laser bore sight thing that went into the rifle chamber lead me to not even try them any more - if you rotated the laser thing in the chamber - it would point to a different place. Maybe newest ones are made better. But, since most all of my rifles are bolt action, I remove the bolt and squint down the bore when installing a scope - bore sight with my eye.

I do have semi-auto .22 and lever action rifles - but they worked out "close enough" to be on large cardboard - just need to visually see that it "looks about right" when mounted, and then start with target to be "close" - if no holes, get closer, until I get holes on the target - align from there - and work your way back out to distance. Is my practice to fire at least twice - more commonly three times, before making an adjustment - I want to see that the system is actually working correctly - and that gives me some clue about the accuracy capability of me, that rifle and that scope installation. No point to continue if getting three holes 5 inches apart at 25 yards or less - something is very wrong with me, that rifle or that scope - simply not going to get that "sighted in" at 100 yards or wherever. But you will not know that, unless you took at least those first three deliberate, careful shots - for most guns / most shooters you will likely end up with a single hole - or perhaps a "lumpy" single hole at 25 yards or less, from a solid rest.

Is a thing that confounds some, I think - I believe is only very last perhaps caliber distance in the barrel, and the condition of the muzzle (and the base of the bullet) that determine where the bullet will go - the rest of that 18", 22", 26" barrel is just going to build velocity - does not actually have much to do with where the bullet goes once it leaves the barrel - so you actually have to fire the thing on a target to know where the bullet goes - so "bore sighting" does NOT tell you that - its purpose is to help you to get holes on the paper - actually have to fire rounds, to know where the next one will likely go.

I had to re-read this...the CHAMBER laser bore sighter did that??? I thought that the chamber one was more reliable than the one you stick into the muzzle with some plastic attachment that expands as you turn the screw. That one I have had the occasional wobble/play as I adjusted those plastic attachments. I have several chamber based lasers but nothing for the 308. Only thing I don't like about the chamber ones is I can't turn them off without unscrewing them and taking out the battery. But good to know about these - I won't buy a 308 one...

 

[Potashminer]

thegazelle - do not take my word for it, or an advertisers word - if you have one or more - clamp your rifle so it does not move - then try placing that thing in your chamber at different orientations - maybe you have a type that is "good" - the one that I tried was noticeably different places for the laser dot, when installed one orientation to another - was a sample of "one" - but enough that I could not be bothered to try another. I am "old school" enough that I see what I see looking through the bore - and I trust that. Do not loose track of the purpose - to get a bullet hole on the paper - despite some posters or some advertising, it DOES NOT replace shooting to "sight in" your scope. You and your outfit might be a 6 MOA combination or a 0.5 MOA combination - a laser bore sighter can not tell you that - only shooting can. You are not "sighted in" when a particular bullet hole shows up where you want to be - is when the centre of your group gets to be there.

 

[thegazelle]

thegazelle - do not take my word for it, or an advertisers word - if you have one or more - clamp your rifle so it does not move - then try placing that thing in your chamber at different orientations - maybe you have a type that is "good" - the one that I tried was noticeably different places for the laser dot, when installed one orientation to another - was a sample of "one" - but enough that I could not be bothered to try another. I am "old school" enough that I see what I see looking through the bore - and I trust that. Do not loose track of the purpose - to get a bullet hole on the paper - despite some posters or some advertising, it DOES NOT replace shooting to "sight in" your scope.

No doubt for sure. And we took over 20 shots between the 50 yard and the 25 yard distances before we realized that anything further that day would just be wasting ammo. Typically in the past, I do take a group of 5 shots (minimum) before manipulating windage or elevation knobs.

I appreciate all the responders on this thread, sharing their extensive experience in helping troubleshoot this problem. I have successfully installed rings and scopes on my other rifles (6-7 with scopes) so this was was a bit of a perplexer. I typically shoot semi autos with red dots, but have installed scopes with success (except once, but I found out the problem afterwards, and it was the installer...(me).

However, in all other cases, I picked out and bought the scope, I picked out and bought the rings and the rifles were of better general quality (Tikka, CZ) and came with its own factory installed bases and it was fairly straight forward and I was able to more than get on paper.

You all have given me a good amount of stuff to consider/try, so I shall report in within a couple of weeks when I get a chance to get back to the club. Thanks again!

 

[Butcherbill]

They all have some margin of error, they’re to get you on paper that’s it. They aren’t some precision instrument, glorified laser pointer basically. The rest is up to you, surprisingly a lot of people think bore sighting gets you dead on. How many of you know a guy that went on a hunting trip with a new rifle that “The store bore sighted” that they never shot, only to miss every deer they shot at?

 

[Potashminer]

They all have some margin of error, they’re to get you on paper that’s it. They aren’t some precision instrument, glorified laser pointer basically. The rest is up to you, surprisingly a lot of people think bore sighting gets you dead on. How many of you know a guy that went on a hunting trip with a new rifle that “The store bore sighted” that they never shot, only to miss every deer they shot at?

It can get even worse - a local guy bought a reasonably expensive rifle (Weatherby Mark V) in 7mm Weatherby Magnum for his son - about had a conniption to discover there was NO ammo to be bought in Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta - I did find 2 boxes of 20 Weatherby brand ammo at a place in Vancouver - was nearly $8 per round once we got it here in Western Manitoba - several years ago. He also had me install a Leupold 2.5-10x40 scope in Talley rings - all decent stuff, I thought, but he pretty much had another conniption when I told him that he needed to shoot some targets to verify that the barrel and scope were pointed in the same direction - I described how I bore sighted and installed that scope. He then drove 2 1/2 hours each way to Brandon to have a "gunsmith" use a "bore sighter" to "sight in" that rifle - was "ready to go" as far as he was concerned. The ammo we got used 160 grain Nosler Partitions - I showed up at his place with a pressure test series - two or three rounds in new Weatherby brass, per 0.5 grain increment, from Nosler Manual start load - 20 rounds in total. That rifle was shooting about 18" high at 100 yards when we started. Again, in my mind - so much for "bore sighting" equalling "sighting in" - he is the one that told me it was "sighted in" to hit 3" high at 100 yards.

 

[Suther]

They all have some margin of error, they’re to get you on paper that’s it. They aren’t some precision instrument, glorified laser pointer basically. The rest is up to you, surprisingly a lot of people think bore sighting gets you dead on. How many of you know a guy that went on a hunting trip with a new rifle that “The store bore sighted” that they never shot, only to miss every deer they shot at?

 

[05RAV]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have ordered! For the cost I am expecting this to move mountains...lol

Super!
After properly mounting the scope, clamp your rifle well in your Tipton Gun Vise. After inserting the boresighter with an arbor into the muzzle, direct a lot of light on the front boresighter lens. Then you will see well the grid in the boresighter. I have a rotary desk lamp on my gunsmithing table which is perfect for that purpose.
To align the boresighter grid with the scope reticles I usually set up the scope at 5x magnification. The boresighter grids are well seen then. Then finally I set up the scope at higher magnification, say 16x and then check the alignment of the grids with the reticles again.

 

[Suther]

Super!
After properly mounting the scope, clamp your rifle well in your Tipton Gun Vise. After inserting the boresighter with an arbor into the muzzle, direct a lot of light on the front boresighter lens. Then you will see well the grid in the boresighter. I have a rotary desk lamp on my gunsmithing table which is perfect for that purpose.
To align the boresighter grid with the scope reticles I usually set up the scope at 5x magnification. The boresighter grids are well seen then. Then finally I set up the scope at higher magnification, say 16x and then check the alignment of the grids with the reticles again.

That sounds like a lot of fiddling around vs just looking down the bore at a small piece of green painters tape on the wall. Lol

 

[OkayShooter]

This is why I use a brand new backing. I cut the Hello Fresh boxes up, gives me at least 3 2x3ft backings. Solves the I dunno where I hit. When it's only your holes. If you don't hot your backing, then something seriously wrong and gun should be taken off the firing line. As you could be shooting over the backstop.


As for lasers. I find them no more accurate than looking down the bore. If you use my method above you'll be on paper.

 

[Butcherbill]

It can get even worse - a local guy bought a reasonably expensive rifle (Weatherby Mark V) in 7mm Weatherby Magnum for his son - about had a conniption to discover there was NO ammo to be bought in Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta - I did find 2 boxes of 20 Weatherby brand ammo at a place in Vancouver - was nearly $8 per round once we got it here in Western Manitoba - several years ago. He also had me install a Leupold 2.5-10x40 scope in Talley rings - all decent stuff, I thought, but he pretty much had another conniption when I told him that he needed to shoot some targets to verify that the barrel and scope were pointed in the same direction - I described how I bore sighted and installed that scope. He then drove 2 1/2 hours each way to Brandon to have a "gunsmith" use a "bore sighter" to "sight in" that rifle - was "ready to go" as far as he was concerned. The ammo we got used 160 grain Nosler Partitions - I showed up at his place with a pressure test series - two or three rounds in new Weatherby brass, per 0.5 grain increment, from Nosler Manual start load - 20 rounds in total. That rifle was shooting about 18" high at 100 yards when we started. Again, in my mind - so much for "bore sighting" equalling "sighting in" - he is the one that told me it was "sighted in" to hit 3" high at 100 yards.

Lol, never ceases to amaze me sometimes what peoples ideas of sighting in are. I have a good friend and granted he doesn’t shoot a ton, he doesn’t hunt. I think he just enjoys owning guns and has an appreciation for the history etc of guns that most of us can relate to. I’ve only ever seen him shoot his shotgun, informal clay shooting basically.

The other fall he picked up a blr in .243 and proceeded to sight it in, told me he couldn’t get on paper at all regardless of distance. I recently was out with him and he shot off his elbow at the bench with no bags, kneeling in front of the bench, made me realize why he can’t get on paper lol. Who knows where his iron sights are set for or if they’re remotely aligned. I shot it offhand at 50-75y and we were on paper but not close to the poa that I consider it good enough, I can’t wait to see where it’s actually hitting off a bench with bags.

The gun he was shooting the other week was on target as I had run through it and made sure the rear sight was adjusted for windage and in the middle of the notched ramp for elevation. I’m going to show him how to sight it in and try to minimize the human element and see what the guns he has are actually capable of with respect to grouping. I’m guessing he tried to sight in the blr unsupported or off a fence post out in some cut block lol.

 

[05RAV]

Quote Originally Posted by 05RAV View Post
Super!
After properly mounting the scope, clamp your rifle well in your Tipton Gun Vise. After inserting the boresighter with an arbor into the muzzle, direct a lot of light on the front boresighter lens. Then you will see well the grid in the boresighter. I have a rotary desk lamp on my gunsmithing table which is perfect for that purpose.
To align the boresighter grid with the scope reticles I usually set up the scope at 5x magnification. The boresighter grids are well seen then. Then finally I set up the scope at higher magnification, say 16x and then check the alignment of the grids with the reticles again.

That sounds like a lot of fiddling around vs just looking down the bore at a small piece of green painters tape on the wall. Lol

In words only. In reality as I mentioned earlier, it takes 5-7 min to do the job. By doing it this way I have assurance that my rifle is initially perfectly bore sighted. On top of it, I'm a retired scientist and like to fiddle with scientific instruments.

 

[meatsticks]

Reinstall everything correctly with torque driver and a dab of blue lock tite, bore sight correctly and you’ll be on paper. If not somethin is grievously wrong with rifle or scope. My bet would be scope. YouTube 3 shot site in. Properly set up you should be shooting groups at 100 yards with 6 cartridges from start to finish. Maybe 10 if you fool about.

 

[naktabar72]

I have great succes with the Axis. yes the stock is flimzy but they shoots good.
But the XP package, the base and rings are never properly torque.
Bore sighting removing the bolt is THE best, do it at 100 yards : usually it brings the rifle to hit 4 inch low at 100.
shooting 40 rounds of 308 is not the best breaking btw.
IF you dont hit a piece of paper at 50 yards, ask someone with experience to help you.
usually it takes two rounds to sighting the rifle at 100.

 

[naktabar72]

You asked, is it the gun, the scope or me ?
I'll go for option number 3.
Heres wifey at 500 yards with her Axis Youth, if SHE can do that. you can....

 

[thegazelle]

Super!
After properly mounting the scope, clamp your rifle well in your Tipton Gun Vise. After inserting the boresighter with an arbor into the muzzle, direct a lot of light on the front boresighter lens. Then you will see well the grid in the boresighter. I have a rotary desk lamp on my gunsmithing table which is perfect for that purpose.
To align the boresighter grid with the scope reticles I usually set up the scope at 5x magnification. The boresighter grids are well seen then. Then finally I set up the scope at higher magnification, say 16x and then check the alignment of the grids with the reticles again.

Alas my friend, I don't have a Tipton Gun Vise nor a gunsmithing table (my dinner table has served this purpose on an ad hoc basis as needed).

 

[thegazelle]

I have great succes with the Axis. yes the stock is flimzy but they shoots good.
But the XP package, the base and rings are never properly torque.

This seems to be the consensus for what I read - the XP has terrible bases and rings, not to mention the scope. Maybe XP stood for "Xtremely Poor"

And yes, once I realized I wasn't hitting anything, I asked my buddy (extensive rifle experience) to check it out. He suggested we go to the 25. He then monkeyed it with the rifle while I was talking with someone else. He wasn't able to hit paper on 25 either. Anyways, we shall try as many suggestions as been made here. Surely between all of those suggestions (starting with taking everything apart and reassembling it with a torque screwdriver and loctite) will yield better results. It will be bore sighted at home and then at the range at 25 with a oversized poster roll of paper plastering the board. I suspect we will find the issue pretty quickly now that we have a plan.

 

[blasted_saber]

It's probably the scope.