Team Hipwell - Join the Fight

[Ribstaylor]

Simple question: there is a large financial red mark in many dealers books. How are YOU proposing to erase that debt? If we have some alternatives then we wouldn't have to put our faith in the CSSAA. And I'm not saying they have my faith, but its the best bet we have currently to deal with the above stated issue.

OH I don't know maybe the court cases currently ongoing.... But nope lets undermine those arguments in court with a industry approved and payed for agreement that gives legitimacy to the government claim that these firearms are A. Not reasonable for civilian use. And B. Legitimizes the liberal pricing by way of industry agreed pricing for store owned prohibs.

Like good timing guys, couldn't of waited for the judges decision before throwing us all under the bus?

 

[jonnyboy1014]

OH I don't know maybe the court cases currently ongoing.... But nope lets undermine those arguments in court with a industry approved and payed for agreement that gives legitimacy to the government claim that these firearms are A. Not reasonable for civilian use. And B. Legitimizes the liberal pricing by way of industry agreed pricing for store owned prohibs.

Like good timing guys, couldn't of waited for the judges decision before throwing us all under the bus?

Facts right here.
I still think someone sold out/needed the money resulting in the entire community being thrown under the bus.


I mean think about it, interest rates are up, economy is down, stock market is in the dumps....someone is desperate

 

[Deadringer]

Deadringer, would you concoct a buy back scheme with the government to buy back your assets at whatever the govt says they’re worth? You buy a new 336F this spring and they tell you cant use it or sell it to anyone but them and it’s only worth $200k according to their appraisal. Then you would work with them to seize everyone else excavators to ‘compensate’ them? Then help compile a list of your customers so they can go take the gravel off the driveway and fill in the basement?

I own a dirt works business too and whether it’s your willing decision or they twisted your wrist with bills and fines, I’d still think you’re a traitor for working with them. It’s your fault as a business owner if you are not liquid enough to cover unforeseen issues like pandemics, work bans or a lawsuit. We’ve all been through struggles in business, you don't sell your principals to the same government that put you in that spot with dictatorial policy.

Ok, first, I'm required to trash talk Cat (although a 315f is basically the short bus riders of the excavator world). They lack the build quality they had 15 years ago.

Second. Its not working with the government to build they buyback scheme, the govt will do that anyway and you have more influence working with them than screaming from the wilderness. It may still be 0.001%, but its not going to hurt, and maybe you can slow it down, mellow it out, whatever. They need to appear to be politically doing something on this front, so it will happen. Its not going to hurt having some people involved who don't hunt with 22 gauge shotguns.

Remember when tier 3 and 4 emissions came in? The machines suck now, burn more fuel, don't last as long, and need expensive def. The govt was going to put those restrictions in. If cat and deere went along, but hitachi and volvo said they weren't going to do it, then you wouldn't have hitachi or volvo machines legal to sell in the market. If none of the manufacturers had participated in formulating those rules the govt may have required the only emissions to be glitter and rainbow farts...

Again, I'm always open to options.

 

[bcbravo2zero]

Actually no. I'm a rancher in bc that runs a specialty excavation business on the side. But i do understand the #s end of a business. And I've had guns since i was 5 years old, but have never done anything in the industry aside from spend money. I've also had the pleasure of legal battles with the government and tying up a couple million dollars in invoices/assets for 5 years before the courts kindly told the govt to eat a #### (yeah, they occasionally do that). It wasn't easy for my business, family or myself, but at least I was able to sell some excavators and other assets to pay employees and legal bills. The gun shops don't have those options (and the bank won't give you $100k to sue someone).

But all the people #####ing at ATRS, Wolverine, Epps... I'm sure lots of you wear fedoras and mom pays for everything. But it can't be everyone thats beaking off. People should be able to look at it from the dealers point of view. If the govt said you couldn't use your gas vehicles any more and you had to buy a $70k electric car, but you just dumped $50k into the gas car you bought last month (which you are now not allowed to sell), not many people have the ability to drop another $70k on an electric car. Or you can say, i just won't get a new car. So you can't drive to your job (or if your car is used for work, then you can't do your job). The shops aren't that far off of that. Nobody built a business plan on govt suddenly saying they couldn't sell half their stock. And people couldn't survive if the govt said that everyone that doesn't need a degree to do their jobs is now getting $4/hr, but prices are staying the same as they are now.

Its the internet, so I don't know why i think people would actually think about something before typing, but obviously venting on "mah feels" is much more important than understanding that the shops aren't our enemies here.

Except for Eagle firearms in Saskatchewan. They are the enemy (or at least they take your money and never ship your order...)

You keep making the same 2 points over and over. Got it, ok? I’ve been in THE most cutthroat business in our country for the last 25 years, and I don’t think your “business 101” lessons or your folksy “for instances” are all that compelling.
You keep missing some unbelievably obvious key issues, like how it’s not just dollars and cents or that this move by the CSAAA has played right into the Libs game plan and has obviously harmed our collective cause.

Fedoras? What?

 

[Deadringer]

OH I don't know maybe the court cases currently ongoing.... But nope lets undermine those arguments in court with a industry approved and payed for agreement that gives legitimacy to the government claim that these firearms are A. Not reasonable for civilian use. And B. Legitimizes the liberal pricing by way of industry agreed pricing for store owned prohibs.

Like good timing guys, couldn't of waited for the judges decision before throwing us all under the bus?

The judge can take up to a year to decide. And if the plaintiffs win it will be appealed to the supreme court (if its the same govt). Which takes more years and overall the lawyer bill will be seven figures. I hope it works out for us in court, I'm not holding my breath.
Working on a buyback changes nothing with the court case, and if the judge agrees with the government, whats your plan then?
If we win in court, this doesn't matter, if the government wins, this is one of the few contingency options available. Unwise to put all our eggs in one basket, and its better to try to cover off the options as best we can.

 

[Deadringer]

You keep making the same 2 points over and over. Got it, ok? I’ve been in THE most cutthroat business in our country for the last 25 years, and I don’t think your “business 101” lessons or your folksy “for instances” are all that compelling.
You keep missing some unbelievably obvious key issues, like how it’s not just dollars and sense or that this move by the CSAAA has played right into the Libs game plan and has obviously harmed our collective cause.

Fedoras? What?

How can it harm our cause? The govt doesn't need the engagement to enact a buyback program, they could get off their striking asses and make it happen.

Most cutthroat industry? Pure honesty here, I would love to know how i can stand on principle rather than maintain cash flow to keep the bills paid? Ultimately it comes down to the dollars. Ya skip paying your taxes for a while and bad things are going to happen.

Obviously i am missing these key issues. Please enlighten me how the cssaa having meetings with the govt is playing into the libs? At worst its just wasting everyones times, at best its not the libs forming a "industry group" mafe up of the MCC members.

How about, rather than vague hints about there being alternatives, you spell out some actual ways you think the shops can monitize their OIC stock, or what the CSSAA can do that will be more effective with slowing/stopping the buyback implementation.

 

[bcbravo2zero]

How can it harm our cause? The govt doesn't need the engagement to enact a buyback program, they could get off their striking asses and make it happen.

Most cutthroat industry? Pure honesty here, I would love to know how i can stand on principle rather than maintain cash flow to keep the bills paid? Ultimately it comes down to the dollars. Ya skip paying your taxes for a while and bad things are going to happen.

Obviously i am missing these key issues. Please enlighten me how the cssaa having meetings with the govt is playing into the libs? At worst its just wasting everyones times, at best its not the libs forming a "industry group" mafe up of the MCC members.

How about, rather than vague hints about there being alternatives, you spell out some actual ways you think the shops can monitize their OIC stock, or what the CSSAA can do that will be more effective with slowing/stopping the buyback implementation.

You’re about half as clever as you think you are, mate. And in some regards, utterly clueless.
Why would I waste my time debating the likes of you on the internet? In the words of a past president of the Royal Society, debating with me might look good on your CV, not so good on mine.
But by all means, keep posting your facile missives…

 

[Deadringer]

Facts right here.
I still think someone sold out/needed the money resulting in the entire community being thrown under the bus.


I mean think about it, interest rates are up, economy is down, stock market is in the dumps....someone is desperate

Again, this is likely true. At least one shop i know won't make the summer, they can't afford new stock (of which little can be found) because they bought a bunch of lego guns right before the ban. It was bad timing for someone who was trying to expand and service our industry. And we are all just fine with him loosing his business because the govt has basically frozen most of his stock?

I wish all the child entertainment on JTs computer comes to light tomorrow and we have an election on canada day. Then its not a problem. But right now, some shops are desperate. We could easily, community wide, bear that financial hardship with little impact, but instead we expect a few to bear the brunt of the financial pain, and then backstab them online if they make an effort to keep their business afloat.

So your above statement is very correct. What would you suggest these desperate people do?

 

[Bfranklin]

Actually no. I'm a rancher in bc that runs a specialty excavation business on the side. But i do understand the #s end of a business. And I've had guns since i was 5 years old, but have never done anything in the industry aside from spend money. I've also had the pleasure of legal battles with the government and tying up a couple million dollars in invoices/assets for 5 years before the courts kindly told the govt to eat a #### (yeah, they occasionally do that). It wasn't easy for my business, family or myself, but at least I was able to sell some excavators and other assets to pay employees and legal bills. The gun shops don't have those options (and the bank won't give you $100k to sue someone).

But all the people #####ing at ATRS, Wolverine, Epps... I'm sure lots of you wear fedoras and mom pays for everything. But it can't be everyone thats beaking off. People should be able to look at it from the dealers point of view. If the govt said you couldn't use your gas vehicles any more and you had to buy a $70k electric car, but you just dumped $50k into the gas car you bought last month (which you are now not allowed to sell), not many people have the ability to drop another $70k on an electric car. Or you can say, i just won't get a new car. So you can't drive to your job (or if your car is used for work, then you can't do your job). The shops aren't that far off of that. Nobody built a business plan on govt suddenly saying they couldn't sell half their stock. And people couldn't survive if the govt said that everyone that doesn't need a degree to do their jobs is now getting $4/hr, but prices are staying the same as they are now.

Its the internet, so I don't know why i think people would actually think about something before typing, but obviously venting on "mah feels" is much more important than understanding that the shops aren't our enemies here.

Except for Eagle firearms in Saskatchewan. They are the enemy (or at least they take your money and never ship your order...)

You can have a business and principles at the same time.

This contract, in principle, was legitimizing the gov theft and throwing the Fed court action under the bus in one fell swoop.

I almost liken it to businesses who sold out their employees via vax mandates to keep the gravy gov contracts.

It's $$ over principles. For better or for worse.

 

[Deadringer]

Perhaps. But I've laid out my reasoning for why i can see the position taken by the CSSAA being one in line with some of their members interests, and that i can't see the downside of their actions. So far you have said that there are alternatives, but you haven't provided any.
However, you did make a point in your second last statement. Although i would rather phrase it as "don't argue with idiots, they will pull you down to their level and beat you with experience" I'm going to go run the dogs...

 

[Deadringer]

You can have a business and principles at the same time.

This contract, in principle, was legitimizing the gov theft and throwing the Fed court action under the bus in one fell swoop.

I almost liken it to businesses who sold out their employees via vax mandates to keep the gravy gov contracts.

It's $$ over principles. For better or for worse.

And some businesses closed during covid, never to re-open. I would rather be happy than right too, and if it was me, its easy to start again. But some folks are older, have kids, responsibilities, a whole lot of things that may prevent them from being able to get out of this. As always, give them an alternative to eat and have their principles too, and you will have a winner. We need to give them alternatives. Acrimony only pays bills for divorce lawyers.

I don't think anyone on either side sees this as legitimising the oic gun ban and buyback. At least we shouldn't. Some alphabet name on a press release doesn't change anything, its one step in a process that needs to play out until thete is a buyback, we win a court case or the libs are voted out. Maybe we can still have some shops at the end.

I'm glad the govt switched to retailers, I'm not even mad if they only get wholesale. It at least does something for the $$$ for these shops, and if the rules change, the shops can buy new stock to see onwards. It doesn't even matter if they spend a billion on buyback, its not like they can sell these guns now. If its legal to sell again, there are still factories making guns, crushing a few guns that are otherwise locked in a vault affects us over the next few tears how?

I passed on contracts because i only have unvaxxed employees (their choice, none of my business), but i have both other contract options and a unique market position that limits people's ability to make demands (very few other options for them). I don't see some of the shops being in the same position. Imagine half your wealth being in limbo, for who knows how long. Maybe forever. Thats a major burden to labour under, I doubt any of us would relish the experience.

 

[Bfranklin]

And some businesses closed during covid, never to re-open. I would rather be happy than right too, and if it was me, its easy to start again. But some folks are older, have kids, responsibilities, a whole lot of things that may prevent them from being able to get out of this. As always, give them an alternative to eat and have their principles too, and you will have a winner. We need to give them alternatives. Acrimony only pays bills for divorce lawyers.

I passed on contracts because i only have unvaxxed employees (their choice, none of my business), but i have both other contract options and a unique market position that limits people's ability to make demands (very few other options for them). I don't see some of the shops being in the same position. Imagine half your wealth being in limbo, for who knows how long. Maybe forever. Thats a major burden to labour under, I doubt any of us would relish the experience.

Again, it comes down to principles. Doing the right thing is never without cost.

I can't see it any other way.

 

[medvedqc]

there is always some that are benefitting from a crisis. some will explain that is to maintain aflaot the system, some others will explain that the new rules are affecting them and prefer to deal with their masters than the slaves and some will stand up for principles ...

those that own ar15 banned from the oic and chose to pay others to fight for them are seeing the light a little too late.

you are never better served than by yourself is a proverb that should be ashed and ashed again and again ...

 

[rethius]

Your longterm customers are Patiently waiting for you to resign from the CSAAA board and discontinue your support for that organization

We will not forget

 

[hsatimmy]

Your longterm customers are Patiently waiting for you to resign from the CSAAA board and discontinue your support for that organization

We will not forget

"I can not comment on the current actions of the CSAAA as I am not a board member so I do not know the details and idle speculation will not help anyone."

That is in post #51. Wrong Wolverine

 

[edgy]

Perhaps. But I've laid out my reasoning for why i can see the position taken by the CSSAA being one in line with some of their members interests, and that i can't see the downside of their actions. So far you have said that there are alternatives, but you haven't provided any.
However, you did make a point in your second last statement. Although i would rather phrase it as "don't argue with idiots, they will pull you down to their level and beat you with experience" I'm going to go run the dogs...

If you are looking for alternatives, RDSC has stated that every single “ prohibited “ they are stuck with can be broken down and every part except the receiver and upper can be sold. They have even offered to buy the parts from other dealers. A better alternative than selling us all out for 30 pieces of silver I would think. Judging by the amount of scrambling I’m seeing from these dealers they knew exactly what they were doing, just weren’t expecting the backlash so quickly

 

[Karnage]

I've easily spent over $30k with Wolverine since, well, seems like forever.

If Matt's explanation doesn't pass the smell test on this collusion with the enemy I will reluctantly spend elsewhere even though it will hurt. The executive of CSAAA should have known what the optics of this would look like and how the Liberals would spin it.

 

[Ipscshooters]

Why doesn't the CSAAA just come to terms and say we have made a grave mistake and put out a media release saying we are no longer helping the government, it would really really spare alot of lost business and hardship

 

[ReverendX]

Why doesn't the CSAAA just come to terms and say we have made a grave mistake and put out a media release saying we are no longer helping the government, it would really really spare alot of lost business and hardship

I recall reading a message they have on their website about this.

 

[randyhub]

Played by the Liberals expertly, rest assured Trudeau and Co are all high 5ing themselves at their toss away agenda pawns.