Team Hipwell - Join the Fight

SigWig said:
^^Jay link no good
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Better?

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I'll say it here as I have elsewhere: it takes a majority to decide, even if that majority is wrong, and who knows who the minority was who voted against? I can't hold at fault the minority who voted against, lobbied against, tried to educate the majority to basic slug intelligence NOT to help the government in any way... Again, that's democracy, even if we don't like the outcome.

The optics coming from the left currently is not good... they're opening the Dom Perignon and spitting on gun owners & the CSAAA right now.

The optics coming from the right currently is not good... I hope there is proof that Matt was one of the minority who voted against it or the firearms enthusiasts and owners of Canada are going to kick Wolverine Supplies to the curb very quickly.
 
The sheer stupidity of everyone getting their panties wadded over the liberals/ gun association announcement today... Have any of you halfwits ever run a business?

Ok, govt announcement, its just Mark Mediocre making his usual incoherent noises.

The CSSAA (apologies if i got that wrong) announcing that they will participate in developing the framework to ensure compensation for dealers. Who the hell do you want representing the gun industry? Poly? Obviously they need to engage, and from a position of power. At least in this case they have a voice (and maybe even some say) in that idiotic price list the govt put out last year. Would you rather it was a gun control group that said they would get $5.99 for each 50 cal in their vault? The guns are currently prohib, the dealers can't do anything with them. But they did have to pay the wholesaler for them, and there are minor costs involved with carrying them forward. But the big issue is the money tied up in stock that they can't monitize. A local little dealer has $200,000+ in wholesale cost firearms that he hasn't been able to do anything with for 3 years. Thats a store that does a gross yearly turn over of $700,000 (so, realistically the owner may take home $100k, before he pays himself for his time.) If those prohibs were bought on credit (which they were) it will have cost him $250k by now to have stuff that he still can't sell. How many of us can just lock up a quarter million bucks away, never knowing when or if we could get it back? And yes, I'm specifically asking that of people who piss and moan on here every time a crate of chinese surplus increases in price $20.

So now you are all livid that the CSSAA is going to try to get a realistic value for the stock that they have that the government has banned them from selling. If its so important, go to your local store, ask them how much stock they have from the OIC list, and write them a cheque for the value of stuff that THEY paid for but YOU want them to keep in their vault. And then I guarantee that that gun shop owner will not participate in any gun buybacks until they are, ironically, forced to turn their stock over at gunpoint.

Its a lack of understanding 2+2=4. The stores don't want to have to go along with the buyback, the CSSAA doesn't want to either. But, from a business sense, they need to make money to pay employees, taxes, stock wholesalers. At some point the retailers need to recover the money invested in the OIC listed stock, very few are sitting on a pile of cash that allow them to stand on the principle. By engaging with the govt, the CSSAA can either perform a delaying action, or at least point out that a 50 cost $8500 wholesale, so $2800 (or whatever it was) isn't reasonable. Or maybe even develop a system where the retailer gets paid what they paid for it (so m305 doesn't get the same buyback as a m14).
If you think this is some huge betrayal of the gun community by the dealers, then feel free not to shop at the dealers. If you think the dealers should refuse to participate with the program, then help them out by giving them some money to cover the cost of them holding onto the stock you think they should refuse to monitize. And if you do the former, don't be surprised when there aren't dealers around to buy
from. Who would want to be in this industry if the clientele are this clueless about how a business works.

If we banded together as a community and put up the money to cover these guns that legally can't be sold (to be honest, it would actually be easy. Develop a database and list of all the SNs, a reasonable carrying cost going forward, then sell the 'shares' in a debt bearing corporation, where, if the OIC gets reversed, then the guns can be sold back to the dealers at the same cost, and they can sell them onwards) or if the buyback and destruction occur, its the community bearing the cost. And that would allow the dealers to get their money back out (not make a profit) to either restock in legal wares or reconsider their business focus.

Put up or shut up (and everyone here will do neither).
 
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You are quite quick to defend the CSAAA.

Who talk for our collective inventory - guns sold by the same dealers to all gun owners, stuck with a value in the million of $ in their safe doing nothing ? What about that CSAAA that state - ‘’we sell our member inventory to the gov so we can buy other gun to sell you ? This goes into the Libs rhetoric that we don’t need semi - just single shot.
We screw you- bend over - we will sell you more after the fed give you penny on the dollar ( we know what they offer)

The facts is the CSAAA entered in a 700K service contract for their benefit and misjudged the politics and impact on court challenges, on gun owners who financially support those to get rid of the IOC.
They also did not take into account they were screwing all their clients who purchased IOC gun from them by the way.

The CSAAA by entering an agreement with the Lib, agreed that those guns have no place in the hand of civilian. The gave new legitimacy to Medicino - the Libs and the Anti - the gun industry is with us and agree with us. You should have seen the media circus today over it.

Keep defending those screwball..I will boycott forever those business and invite anybody to do the same. Screwing up your customer is never a good business plan.

The CSAAA is a pariah org and members should jump shop if they don’t agree with their actions.
Until then , I will loudly as possible, promote on ALL media platform, the boycott of the CSAAA business members.
 
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Deadringer said:
The sheer stupidity of everyone getting their panties wadded over the liberals/ gun association announcement today... Have any of you halfwits ever run a business?

Ok, govt announcement, its just Mark Mediocre making his usual incoherent noises.

The CSSAA (apologies if i got that wrong) announcing that they will participate in developing the framework to ensure compensation for dealers. Who the hell do you want representing the gun industry? Poly? Obviously they need to engage, and from a position of power. At least in this case they have a voice (and maybe even some say) in that idiotic price list the govt put out last year. Would you rather it was a gun control group that said they would get $5.99 for each 50 cal in their vault? The guns are currently prohib, the dealers can't do anything with them. But they did have to pay the wholesaler for them, and there are minor costs involved with carrying them forward. But the big issue is the money tied up in stock that they can't monitize. A local little dealer has $200,000+ in wholesale cost firearms that he hasn't been able to do anything with for 3 years. Thats a store that does a gross yearly turn over of $700,000 (so, realistically the owner may take home $100k, before he pays himself for his time.) If those prohibs were bought on credit (which they were) it will have cost him $250k by now to have stuff that he still can't sell. How many of us can just lock up a quarter million bucks away, never knowing when or if we could get it back? And yes, I'm specifically asking that of people who piss and moan on here every time a crate of chinese surplus increases in price $20.

So now you are all livid that the CSSAA is going to try to get a realistic value for the stock that they have that the government has banned them from selling. If its so important, go to your local store, ask them how much stock they have from the OIC list, and write them a cheque for the value of stuff that THEY paid for but YOU want them to keep in their vault. And then I guarantee that that gun shop owner will not participate in any gun buybacks until they are, ironically, forced to turn their stock over at gunpoint.

Its a lack of understanding 2+2=4. The stores don't want to have to go along with the buyback, the CSSAA doesn't want to either. But, from a business sense, they need to make money to pay employees, taxes, stock wholesalers. At some point the retailers need to recover the money invested in the OIC listed stock, very few are sitting on a pile of cash that allow them to stand on the principle. By engaging with the govt, the CSSAA can either perform a delaying action, or at least point out that a 50 cost $8500 wholesale, so $2800 (or whatever it was) isn't reasonable. Or maybe even develop a system where the retailer gets paid what they paid for it (so m305 doesn't get the same buyback as a m14).
If you think this is some huge betrayal of the gun community by the dealers, then feel free not to shop at the dealers. If you think the dealers should refuse to participate with the program, then help them out by giving them some money to cover the cost of them holding onto the stock you think they should refuse to monitize. And if you do the former, don't be surprised when there aren't dealers around to buy
from. Who would want to be in this industry if the clientele are this clueless about how a business works.

If we banded together as a community and put up the money to cover these guns that legally can't be sold (to be honest, it would actually be easy. Develop a database and list of all the SNs, a reasonable carrying cost going forward, then sell the 'shares' in a debt bearing corporation, where, if the OIC gets reversed, then the guns can be sold back to the dealers at the same cost, and they can sell them onwards) or if the buyback and destruction occur, its the community bearing the cost. And that would allow the dealers to get their money back out (not make a profit) to either restock in legal wares or reconsider their business focus.

Put up or shut up (and everyone here will do neither).
Click to expand...

Wish you could upvote on this site
 
Deadringer said:
The sheer stupidity of everyone getting their panties wadded over the liberals/ gun association announcement today... Have any of you halfwits ever run a business?

Ok, govt announcement, its just Mark Mediocre making his usual incoherent noises.

The CSSAA (apologies if i got that wrong) announcing that they will participate in developing the framework to ensure compensation for dealers. Who the hell do you want representing the gun industry? Poly? Obviously they need to engage, and from a position of power. At least in this case they have a voice (and maybe even some say) in that idiotic price list the govt put out last year. Would you rather it was a gun control group that said they would get $5.99 for each 50 cal in their vault? The guns are currently prohib, the dealers can't do anything with them. But they did have to pay the wholesaler for them, and there are minor costs involved with carrying them forward. But the big issue is the money tied up in stock that they can't monitize. A local little dealer has $200,000+ in wholesale cost firearms that he hasn't been able to do anything with for 3 years. Thats a store that does a gross yearly turn over of $700,000 (so, realistically the owner may take home $100k, before he pays himself for his time.) If those prohibs were bought on credit (which they were) it will have cost him $250k by now to have stuff that he still can't sell. How many of us can just lock up a quarter million bucks away, never knowing when or if we could get it back? And yes, I'm specifically asking that of people who piss and moan on here every time a crate of chinese surplus increases in price $20.

So now you are all livid that the CSSAA is going to try to get a realistic value for the stock that they have that the government has banned them from selling. If its so important, go to your local store, ask them how much stock they have from the OIC list, and write them a cheque for the value of stuff that THEY paid for but YOU want them to keep in their vault. And then I guarantee that that gun shop owner will not participate in any gun buybacks until they are, ironically, forced to turn their stock over at gunpoint.

Its a lack of understanding 2+2=4. The stores don't want to have to go along with the buyback, the CSSAA doesn't want to either. But, from a business sense, they need to make money to pay employees, taxes, stock wholesalers. At some point the retailers need to recover the money invested in the OIC listed stock, very few are sitting on a pile of cash that allow them to stand on the principle. By engaging with the govt, the CSSAA can either perform a delaying action, or at least point out that a 50 cost $8500 wholesale, so $2800 (or whatever it was) isn't reasonable. Or maybe even develop a system where the retailer gets paid what they paid for it (so m305 doesn't get the same buyback as a m14).
If you think this is some huge betrayal of the gun community by the dealers, then feel free not to shop at the dealers. If you think the dealers should refuse to participate with the program, then help them out by giving them some money to cover the cost of them holding onto the stock you think they should refuse to monitize. And if you do the former, don't be surprised when there aren't dealers around to buy
from. Who would want to be in this industry if the clientele are this clueless about how a business works.

If we banded together as a community and put up the money to cover these guns that legally can't be sold (to be honest, it would actually be easy. Develop a database and list of all the SNs, a reasonable carrying cost going forward, then sell the 'shares' in a debt bearing corporation, where, if the OIC gets reversed, then the guns can be sold back to the dealers at the same cost, and they can sell them onwards) or if the buyback and destruction occur, its the community bearing the cost. And that would allow the dealers to get their money back out (not make a profit) to either restock in legal wares or reconsider their business focus.

Put up or shut up (and everyone here will do neither).
Click to expand...

You look like Wes....is it you?
 
Actually no. I'm a rancher in bc that runs a specialty excavation business on the side. But i do understand the #s end of a business. And I've had guns since i was 5 years old, but have never done anything in the industry aside from spend money. I've also had the pleasure of legal battles with the government and tying up a couple million dollars in invoices/assets for 5 years before the courts kindly told the govt to eat a #### (yeah, they occasionally do that). It wasn't easy for my business, family or myself, but at least I was able to sell some excavators and other assets to pay employees and legal bills. The gun shops don't have those options (and the bank won't give you $100k to sue someone).

But all the people #####ing at ATRS, Wolverine, Epps... I'm sure lots of you wear fedoras and mom pays for everything. But it can't be everyone thats beaking off. People should be able to look at it from the dealers point of view. If the govt said you couldn't use your gas vehicles any more and you had to buy a $70k electric car, but you just dumped $50k into the gas car you bought last month (which you are now not allowed to sell), not many people have the ability to drop another $70k on an electric car. Or you can say, i just won't get a new car. So you can't drive to your job (or if your car is used for work, then you can't do your job). The shops aren't that far off of that. Nobody built a business plan on govt suddenly saying they couldn't sell half their stock. And people couldn't survive if the govt said that everyone that doesn't need a degree to do their jobs is now getting $4/hr, but prices are staying the same as they are now.

Its the internet, so I don't know why i think people would actually think about something before typing, but obviously venting on "mah feels" is much more important than understanding that the shops aren't our enemies here.

Except for Eagle firearms in Saskatchewan. They are the enemy (or at least they take your money and never ship your order...)
 
Here is today statement about the new CSAAA friends;

This is the first step towards getting assault-style firearms out of our communities.”

The CSAAA, an organization representing hunting and sport shooting in Canada, will collaborate with Public Safety Canada and retailers on the FBP.

According to a government statement, the first phase of the FBP is scheduled to start later this year and will concentrate on businesses that sell banned firearms.
——
Make it clear the CSAAA do not represent hunting and sport shooting- no fxck in way.
 
Deadringer said:
Actually no. I'm a rancher in bc that runs a specialty excavation business on the side. But i do understand the #s end of a business. And I've had guns since i was 5 years old, but have never done anything in the industry aside from spend money. I've also had the pleasure of legal battles with the government and tying up a couple million dollars in invoices/assets for 5 years before the courts kindly told the govt to eat a #### (yeah, they occasionally do that). It wasn't easy for my business, family or myself, but at least I was able to sell some excavators and other assets to pay employees and legal bills. The gun shops don't have those options (and the bank won't give you $100k to sue someone).

But all the people #####ing at ATRS, Wolverine, Epps... I'm sure lots of you wear fedoras and mom pays for everything. But it can't be everyone thats beaking off. People should be able to look at it from the dealers point of view. If the govt said you couldn't use your gas vehicles any more and you had to buy a $70k electric car, but you just dumped $50k into the gas car you bought last month (which you are now not allowed to sell), not many people have the ability to drop another $70k on an electric car. Or you can say, i just won't get a new car. So you can't drive to your job (or if your car is used for work, then you can't do your job). The shops aren't that far off of that. Nobody built a business plan on govt suddenly saying they couldn't sell half their stock. And people couldn't survive if the govt said that everyone that doesn't need a degree to do their jobs is now getting $4/hr, but prices are staying the same as they are now.

Its the internet, so I don't know why i think people would actually think about something before typing, but obviously venting on "mah feels" is much more important than understanding that the shops aren't our enemies here.

Except for Eagle firearms in Saskatchewan. They are the enemy (or at least they take your money and never ship your order...)
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The dealers exist because we spend our hard earned buck with them. Start thinking about the interest of your clients if you want to have any. Not all dealers are in bed with the CSAAA . There is no need for those who are.
We have choice other than those. You make it sound like we have no choice. You are wrong.

You should take your own advise about typing…
 
Someone is broke and needs money to pay their obligations so the liberals paid them off to play ball.

"When the tide goes out you see who is wearing shorts and whos swimming naked" - Warren Buffet
Meaning someone's business might have been over extended in debt/credit

Often times the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
 
Janeau said:
You are quite quick to defend the CSAAA.

Who talk for our collective inventory - guns sold by the same dealers to all gun owners, stuck with a value in the million of $ in their safe doing nothing ? What about that CSAAA that state - ‘’we sell our member inventory to the gov so we can buy other gun to sell you ? This goes into the Libs rhetoric that we don’t need semi - just single shot.
We screw you- bend over - we will sell you more after the fed give you penny on the dollar ( we know what they offer)

The facts is the CSAAA entered in a 700K service contract for their benefit and misjudged the politics and impact on court challenges, on gun owners who financially support those to get rid of the IOC.
They also did not take into account they were screwing all their clients who purchased IOC gun from them by the way.

The CSAAA by entering an agreement with the Lib, agreed that those guns have no place in the hand of civilian. The gave new legitimacy to Medicino - the Libs and the Anti - the gun industry is with us and agree with us. You should have seen the media circus today over it.

Keep defending those screwball..I will boycott forever those business and invite anybody to do the same. Screwing up your customer is never a good business plan.

The CSAAA is a pariah org and members should jump shop if they don’t agree with their actions.
Until then , I will loudly as possible, promote on ALL media platform, the boycott of the CSAAA business members.
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. I see this as the cssaa taking a step to cover off the avenue the liberals are taking for solely political posturing (as in, the 11k stock number is bogus, and there is no money set aside for the buyback i current fiscal year). This puts them at the table to have input on the policy to force changes or at least delay action through dispute. The MCC should be a good example of what happens if you let the liberals just set the tone.

Or, more simply, how does not becoming engaged in the process lead us to a better solution?

I will always jump to the defence of someone trying to run a business and finding themselves attacked by people who aren't proposing solutions.

How do you think we should proceed to make the shops financially viable again? Boycotting them doesn't seem a good idea, unless you think Sears is going to go back to offering firearms.

The industry needs a lobby group, I totally agree that i don't think the cssaa has done a good job (and i wasn't defending the cssaa so much as the shops) of late, but they are the current industry lobby. So speaking with a $2B voice is better than a $4m voice, and someone else saying different stuff with a $7m voice.

The house is burning down here. Some people are yelling because the firefighters are doing an indirect attack on it and they think it should be fought from the inside (even though they think SCBA is what they wore when swimming in the Carribbean)You are standing on the lawn screaming that we need a new fire department, and all the firefighters are likely pyros (maybe true). Either/both of you may be right, but how about we deal with this fire right now...
 
Janeau said:
The dealers exist because we spend our hard earned buck with them. Start thinking about the interest of your clients if you want to have any. Not all dealers are in bed with the CSAAA . There is no need for those who are.
We have choice other than those. You make it sound like we have no choice. You are wrong.

You should take your own advise about typing…
Click to expand...


The dealers aren't required to go into crippling debt to ensure theres a store for you to buy guns from.

Some dealers have the cash to ride this out, many don't. Especially the people who have gotten into the industry recently. The industry lobby doesn't represent all shops, but its the go to place for interaction with the govt. Absolutely, deal with the shops that aren't members of the cssaa if that option is available to you. Its isn't for everyone.

You are failing to understand a very basic theory. A business needs to generate a profit to continue to exist. If the gun shops don't make a profit, they are gone. For those with a lot of money tied up because of the OIC, thats a challenge to make the books work out positively. Many can't ride out the two years before a 2025 election (or if jagmeets knees get sore, maybe sooner). What options do these shops have? How about some ideas to address the $ issues, instead of "TRAITORS!".

To mis-quote chris rock "you ate a restaurant one time, they don't owe you a steak"
 
Deadringer, would you concoct a buy back scheme with the government to buy back your assets at whatever the govt says they’re worth? You buy a new 336F this spring and they tell you cant use it or sell it to anyone but them and it’s only worth $200k according to their appraisal. Then you would work with them to seize everyone else excavators to ‘compensate’ them? Then help compile a list of your customers so they can go take the gravel off the driveway and fill in the basement?

I own a dirt works business too and whether it’s your willing decision or they twisted your wrist with bills and fines, I’d still think you’re a traitor for working with them. It’s your fault as a business owner if you are not liquid enough to cover unforeseen issues like pandemics, work bans or a lawsuit. We’ve all been through struggles in business, you don't sell your principals to the same government that put you in that spot with dictatorial policy.
 
Whatever the intentions of the CSAAA are or were, they have massively harmed our cause. They were utterly suckered and outmanoeuvred by Mendicino, who can now claim far and wide that this major gun org has PARTNERED with them to confiscate “assault weapons”.
And the CSAAA didn’t see it coming (or maybe they didn’t care…govnt $contract$ and all that).
Way to go, you bunch of amateurs.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
I, John Hipwell, feel I need to step in here and make some clarification/corrections to some of the post I have read today..

I can not comment on the current actions of the CSAAA as I am not a board member so I do not know the details and idle speculation will not help anyone.

I founded Wolverine Supplies, I have since retired and my son Matt owns and runs the business. Matt and Wolverine were/are involved with the legal action initiated by the CCFR. All financial donations to Wolverine for the legal fight would have gone to the CCFR unless specifically specified that they were to go to my action “Team Hipwell”.

My action “Team Hipwell” was brought about by me personally not by Wolverine Supplies. This action along with all the other legal actions will benefit all Canadian gun owners not just the named individuals, even if you have offered zero support.

For the record my son Matt has carried on the lobbying I have been committed to for several decades against restrictive gun control regulations that would not improve public safety. Separately and jointly we have made presentations to MP’s and Government groups, with our varied back grounds, we have made a very strong team.

I think mud slinging is a little premature, at least wait until the true facts emerge. Although in these kind of issues the truth is often distorted.
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Thanks for your reply Mr Hipwell. I hope your court case is successful I personally donated and hope it works in both our favors.

But the optics on this are for the CSAAA are not good. To take $700,000 to come up with a list of product, and potential pricing for it on behalf of the government of Canada, before the court cases are even done screams of poor decision making. And at worst it looks like they are in agreement with the liberal plan and agenda. At this time the CSAAA is a government actor, against the lawful ownership of these firearms. And their decisions are a direct opposition to your lawsuit. The Liberal party will use the CSAAA as the legitimacy of industry to show both the Media and Canadians that even the industry believes them to be inappropriate for hunting and sports shooting. It will add the legitimacy behind the pricing scheme the liberals have failed to garner over the last three years.

The CSAAA Is now actively working against all of our interests. Like I said I hope the law suit works out, and thanks for fighting the government on this front. But I can not in good consonance continue to be a customer of any company with a member on that board who hasn't resigned from the board, or removed their membership from the CSAAA.

So far Ryan Harriman of SFRC, and Philip O'Dell of Odell Engineering have resigned, or removed their membership. Any company attached to the CSAAA, who are dedicated to fighting the Liberal confiscation should do the same.
 
jonnyboy1014 said:
Someone is broke and needs money to pay their obligations so the liberals paid them off to play ball.

"When the tide goes out you see who is wearing shorts and whos swimming naked" - Warren Buffet
Meaning someone's business might have been over extended in debt/credit

Often times the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
Click to expand...

Very true. Also may help with making the books look better if they were trying to sell, secure lending, etc.

When the buyback implementation contract was issued by the govt, I looked at it. Was far beyond the financing scope that i could do, and no legit company wanted to touch that with a 10 ft pole and the entire Canadian army pushing them. But look at it from the other end, I woulda been awesome at it. A half dozen people would have gotten buyback money for worn out norincos and ar15s made from broken parts, we would have covered another year off before another government comes into power, i could have made $50m for running a few ads on the TV and everyone who wanted to would still have their guns. Plus the CBC would have stories about how the libs spent $6.4million per gun in the fiest year of the butback (the contract had no legal mechanism to physically enter and take guns, law doesn't work that way, thats a LEO only right in Canada).

Theres more than one way to skin a cat (hot water pressure washer is the most satisfying). Are you sure the CSSAA isn't thinking this way?
 
Castle1 said:
You have to cut down other firearms supporters in your post eh? Maybe you wear the fedora buddy.

Sorry but I don't and won't buy your argument that the dealers had to go along and support the government. This is why Canada is a joke as we can't even get the firearms community together on one issue...I mean...the CSAAA is gonna help retardo mendicino for a palty sum and help the gov destroy the industy in Canada.

You feel free to believe the csaaa is acting in a positive manner in relation to the Canadian firearms industry. The rest of us will choose to never give any of the related director's business's our cash.
Click to expand...


Simple question: there is a large financial red mark in many dealers books. How are YOU proposing to erase that debt? If we have some alternatives then we wouldn't have to put our faith in the CSSAA. And I'm not saying they have my faith, but its the best bet we have currently to deal with the above stated issue.
 
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