What should a tuner be expected to do?

[grauhanen]

I've been revisiting using a tuner on a rimfire rifle. As I've been shooting at 57 yards (my club's version of 50), I've been wondering about what the tuner should be expected to achieve.

There are a few prerequisites. It's necessary to use consistent ammo and a rifle that can shoot consistently. It's also necessary to use a consistent rifle/rest set up and to use as consistent a hold from shot-to-shot (or to shoot "free recoil" which removes shooter "hold" from the equation).

There are a few "givens" when a tuner is doing what it should. It won't suddenly make poor ammo turn into good shooting stuff. It won't magically shrink groups to sub-.5 MOA (that's under .25" at 50 yards). It won't eliminate "flyers" or errant shots that are ammo related, caused by significant MV differences or imperfect bullet heels or center of gravity issues (balance).

When the best tuner setting is found, what should a tuner be expected to do?

 

[I Dont Care About You]

There are a few prerequisites. It's necessary to use consistent ammo and a rifle that can shoot consistently. It's also necessary to use a consistent rifle/rest set up and to use as consistent a hold from shot-to-shot (or to shoot "free recoil" which removes shooter "hold" from the equation).

There are a few "givens" when a tuner is doing what it should. It won't suddenly make poor ammo turn into good shooting stuff. It won't magically shrink groups to sub-.5 MOA (that's under .25" at 50 yards). It won't eliminate "flyers" or errant shots that are ammo related, caused by significant MV differences or imperfect bullet heels or center of gravity issues (balance).

When the best tuner setting is found, what should a tuner be expected to do?

Think about the information you have presented above.

Requirements: Good rifle, good ammo, good shooting equipment and skills

Things the tuner won't do: Shrink groups, eliminate flyers

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

What would be the point?


If you really look into it and consider the parameters of statistical significance you will discover that we don't shoot enough groups to prove accuracy with statistical significance and that barrel tuners really don't work, except maybe under the most strict conditions, with the most accurate ammo and rifles. All of which makes them statistically insignificant to group size.

You will be better off to spend your money on quality ammo.


Of course, like any piece of equipment, there will be people who will swear up and down that of course that particular widget works wonders. They have never attempted to check to see if it is really true but they know for sure that it is ..... because if it didn't work, they were dumb to have spent the hundreds of dollars to buy a useless gadget and the vast majority of people are not willing to admit that to themselves. #psychology

 

[*lawrence]

A tuner is really good at starting an argument on the internet.

 

[Can-down]

A tuner is really good at starting an argument on the internet.

Bullseye, tuners work 50% of the time every time.... to cause an argument.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Bullseye, tuners work 50% of the time every time.... to cause an argument.

LOL, well at least they accomplish something.

 

[Rod B]

They make $$$$ for those manufacturing them.

 

[grauhanen]

The issue is not whether or not tuners work. They do and they can shrink groups. Of course, they don't change them dramatically, like piles cured by some kind of miraculous shooting version of Preparation H.

To rephrase, for shooters who use a tuner when it's set at the optimal setting and doing what it should do, how can you tell? What kind of evidence is seen on target?

This isn't a trick question with a trick answer.

 

[Toolman]

I can say without any doubt the biggest benefit I get from my tuner is reduced vertical. Nothing earth shattering, just a more level pattern. I do not compete or practice without one.

The difference is real but it’s subtle.

 

[Can-down]

The issue is not whether or not tuners work. They do and they can shrink groups. Of course, they don't change them dramatically, like piles cured by some kind of miraculous shooting version of Preparation H.

To rephrase, for shooters who use a tuner when it's set at the optimal setting and doing what it should do, how can you tell? What kind of evidence is seen on target?

This isn't a trick question with a trick answer.

I've never messed around with a tuner but will at some point just to have some fun and see how frustrating they could be....

I'm thinking of using it with .22lr, and I can only imagine the biggest issue would be the variability in the ammo even with good quality target ammo and lot changes etc.

My goal is not to win competitions however it's more to avoid the whole "you need to find the right ammo that shoots well out of your barrel" and try an see if I can modify the barrel harmonics for using different ammo lots and what I have available on hand in large quantity to make it worth the effort.

I'm more of a "can-down" shooter then a one hole hero.... reactive targets are what I prefer, but I recognize the challenge of shooting small groups consistently and might start down that road with the .22lr.


As I posted in the last tuner thread, another benefit is to give a competition shooter some extra mental calm/confidence. if they can convince themselves they have optimized every hardware issue to the best of their ability... after that it's "simply" a matter of relaxing and getting it done behind the trigger.

 

[ScottMisfits]

A tuner is for the 1% shooters where thousands of an inch matter. Do they work at shrinking groups if "tuned in" well? Sure. Substantially? Nope. Same as headspace shims. Can they help shrink the groups? Sure, they can and do. Is it enough that the average shooter can utilize the change? Probably not.
Money is better spent elsewhere and leaving those items as the final fine tuning bits for the guys who are on the podiums every weekend.

 

[Biologist]

Using a tunnel testing facility like Eley's and Lapua's, all the wind and human error and inconsistency variables are eliminated. I think that is the only non-contestable way to test the effects of a tuner and ammo.

With the testing tunnel methods, that leaves three forces responsible for group size and shape:

(1) the inherent dispersion properties of the ammo itself, i.e., most round's trajectory will be slightly different, creating the spread in the group; and

(2) the harmonic resonance of the barrel and the amplitude of the sine wave movement at the muzzle; and

(3) the defective round percentage in every make and lot of ammo. Topic for another day. But suffice to say that there are spatial statistical methods that can identify outliers, quantify their effect, and then you can chose an outlier factor to eliminate them from the group. Fliers are real in a match and can lose you the match. But fliers need to eliminated from the data set for testing tuner effects on a barrel. Otherwise the data will be confounded with the fliers and the effect of the tuner will be masked.

I thought the purpose (hypothesis) of tuners is for acting on force #2, to reduce the amplitude of the harmonic resonance sign wave at the muzzle. If achieved, this reduces variation in average group size and shape between groups.

Null hypothesis: Tuners have no effect on group size and shape, or precision and accuracy.

To reject the null hypothesis, sufficient evidence needs to be produced to show that when using a tuner, group size and shape, or accuracy and precision, are significantly different from using no tuner.

To address the original question: "When the best tuner setting is found, what should a tuner be expected to do?"
The results of the experiment will answer this, for a specific rifle with a specific tuner.

 

[grauhanen]

I can say without any doubt the biggest benefit I get from my tuner is reduced vertical. Nothing earth shattering, just a more level pattern. I do not compete or practice without one.

The difference is real but it’s subtle.

Thanks, Toolman. That information is appreciateed as it's coming from someone who has genuine experience.

 

[grauhanen]

I've never messed around with a tuner but will at some point just to have some fun and see how frustrating they could be....

I'm thinking of using it with .22lr, and I can only imagine the biggest issue would be the variability in the ammo even with good quality target ammo and lot changes etc.

My goal is not to win competitions however it's more to avoid the whole "you need to find the right ammo that shoots well out of your barrel" and try an see if I can modify the barrel harmonics for using different ammo lots and what I have available on hand in large quantity to make it worth the effort.

If your goal is to avoid finding the right lots of ammo that shoot well, you should not be thinking about using a tuner. That's not what they do.

Using a tunnel testing facility like Eley's and Lapua's, all the wind and human error and inconsistency variables are eliminated. I think that is the only non-contestable way to test the effects of a tuner and ammo.

In an ideal world, .22LR shooters using tuners would confirm settings in a place like a tunnel where wind isn't a factor. It remains unclear whether the fixtures/vises exert an influence on the barrel/tuner that's not replicated in practical situations. In any case, for the vast majority of shooters, the best settings for tuners must be found without the benefit of shooting in a tunnel or even indoors. It must be done from the bench, outdoors, and with a good understanding of what to look for.

_______________________

Shooting outdoors without the rifle clamped in a vise is one of the factors that makes finding the right setting a challenge. It's never as simple as putting a tuner on the muzzle, setting up the bipod on a barricade, and shooting groups until a small one appears.

Part of the challenge is appreciating what a tuner can and can't do. A related part is recognizing when a tuner is doing what it should be doing. That part is often underappreciated. This is why I'm asking the question raised above.

 

[Can-down]

If your goal is to avoid finding the right lots of ammo that shoot well, you should not be thinking about using a tuner. That's not what they do.

I was under the impression that they altered barrel harmonics and was hoping that the reason different .22lr barrels have ammo preferences was due to their harmonic differences.... what do you think barrels to have different preferences? The bore, rifling and crown are much harder to tweek....

 

[emerson]

I’m curious myself. If anyone can show me tighter vertical at 200, for example, I’m far too deep into Rimfire to choke on a few hundred $$. Aside from ammo inconsistency and wind, I’m banging a 2 1/2” steel at 200 with too much consistency to ignore with no tuner.

 

[grauhanen]

I was under the impression that they altered barrel harmonics and was hoping that the reason different .22lr barrels have ammo preferences was due to their harmonic differences.... what do you think barrels to have different preferences? The bore, rifling and crown are much harder to tweek....

While tuners can alter barrel harmonics, barrels have ammo preferences only insofar as they will only shoot good ammo well. Tuners can't change the ammo. They can't cause inconsistent ammo to become consistent. When inconsistent ammo goes down the bore, nothing can save or help it.

Rifles/barrels don't have a preference for one brand or maker of ammo over another, for example Lapua over Eley or RWS over SK. Match .22LR ammo is made in batches called "lots". Different lots can have different characteristics that can make them shoot with different results from one rifle to the next. Characteristics that help determine ammo performance include low ES, consistent MV, consistently good bullet geometry, seating, and crimping, and consistent primer application among others. Every match ammo maker makes lots that will shoot well in a particular good rifle/barrel.

Often a lot with good characteristics will shoot well across many rifles/barrels. But since every bore is unique, it's a fact that all good lots don't shoot equally well, with some being slightly better than others. That's why serious shooters will test lots.

Generally speaking, more expensive ammos tend to have better characteristics. But the price or name on the box doesn't guarantee performance. Keep in mind a tuner can't turn a modest rifle/barrel into something it isn't, just as top tier ammo can't turn a modest rifle/barrel into a seriously competitive shooter.

 

[Can-down]

While tuners can alter barrel harmonics, barrels have ammo preferences only insofar as they will only shoot good ammo well. Tuners can't change the ammo. They can't cause inconsistent ammo to become consistent. When inconsistent ammo goes down the bore, nothing can save or help it.

Rifles/barrels don't have a preference for one brand or maker of ammo over another, for example Lapua over Eley or RWS over SK. Match .22LR ammo is made in batches called "lots". Different lots can have different characteristics that can make them shoot with different results from one rifle to the next. Characteristics that help determine ammo performance include low ES, consistent MV, consistently good bullet geometry, seating, and crimping, and consistent primer application among others. Every match ammo maker makes lots that will shoot well in a particular good rifle/barrel.

Often a lot with good characteristics will shoot well across many rifles/barrels. But since every bore is unique, it's a fact that all good lots don't shoot equally well, with some being slightly better than others. That's why serious shooters will test lots.

Generally speaking, more expensive ammos tend to have better characteristics. But the price or name on the box doesn't guarantee performance. Keep in mind a tuner can't turn a modest rifle/barrel into something it isn't, just as top tier ammo can't turn a modest rifle/barrel into a seriously competitive shooter.

Thanks Grauhanen, I'm actually a bit surprised that anyone would think a tuner could have an effect on the ammo, but I guess everyone is wired differently....

I also understand lot variations and the fact that even the best centerfire handloads or sweet spot lots of factory rimfire ammo will never be perfectly consistent...... that's fairly obvious to me, just as cheaper bulk ammo will have more variation then expensive competition ammo..... makes perfect sense.

What I don't understand are the claims made by many people that their particular run of the mill .22lr rifle prefers a certain brand of cheap bulk ammo over other brands of cheap bulk ammo? Clearly we are talking cheap bulk ammo that all shoots like crap compared to a nice lot of Eley or Lapua etc. and as you point out there will be lot variations as well. Most likely someone noticed on a particular day that a certain load shot better then others and just decided that their gun preferred X over Y and Z and never bothered to take the testing much further.

Such claims need to be taken with some internet salt, but it's possible that these claims might suggest that every once in a while some cheap bulk ammo's line up better then other cheap ammo in certain barrels and perhaps it's a harmonic match that is helping the groups out.... clearly I am not talking about competition worthy results, but maybe going from a 6 inch group at 50 yards to maybe closer to a 2 inch group as an example. Minute of gopher or pop can so to speak.

I bought a used tuner recently so at some point I will try and mess around with it and see if I can tell the difference for anyone else interested in tuning so called "crap ammo" to see if it's even possible to make any improvements and also try it with mid range CCI Standard and the like.

I hope this does not lead me into weighing rounds, measuring rim thickness and looking for Paco’s ACU’RZR tool...

 

[grauhanen]

Thanks Grauhanen, I'm actually a bit surprised that anyone would think a tuner could have an effect on the ammo, but I guess everyone is wired differently....

I also understand lot variations and the fact that even the best centerfire handloads or sweet spot lots of factory rimfire ammo will never be perfectly consistent...... that's fairly obvious to me, just as cheaper bulk ammo will have more variation then expensive competition ammo..... makes perfect sense.

What I don't understand are the claims made by many people that their particular run of the mill .22lr rifle prefers a certain brand of cheap bulk ammo over other brands of cheap bulk ammo? Clearly we are talking cheap bulk ammo that all shoots like crap compared to a nice lot of Eley or Lapua etc. and as you point out there will be lot variations as well. Most likely someone noticed on a particular day that a certain load shot better then others and just decided that their gun preferred X over Y and Z and never bothered to take the testing much further.

Such claims need to be taken with some internet salt, but it's possible that these claims might suggest that every once in a while some cheap bulk ammo's line up better then other cheap ammo in certain barrels and perhaps it's a harmonic match that is helping the groups out.... clearly I am not talking about competition worthy results, but maybe going from a 6 inch group at 50 yards to maybe closer to a 2 inch group as an example. Minute of gopher or pop can so to speak.

I bought a used tuner recently so at some point I will try and mess around with it and see if I can tell the difference for anyone else interested in tuning so called "crap ammo" to see if it's even possible to make any improvements and also try it with mid range CCI Standard and the like.

I hope this does not lead me into weighing rounds, measuring rim thickness and looking for Paco’s ACU’RZR tool...

Tuners will affect ammo, but not nearly as much as some optimists might hope or think. If they did, everyone and every rifle would have them.

You are absolutely right about taking internet claims with a healthy dose of scepticism (especially when it's accompanied with a very limited amount of supporting data or only a single group). Too many shooters and readers believe the things that get repeated on various forums. Just because a lot of guys repeat them, doesn't make them true. Reliable data or evidence is always more persuasive.

Don't bother wasting time with weighing rounds, sorting by rim thickness, or using accurizing short cuts. They don't work. Serious competitors don't sort their ammo. They test for the lots that shoot well.

 

[guntech]

When the best tuner setting is found, what should a tuner be expected to do?

Make that rifle shoot that ammo the best it possibly can.

 

[Can-down]

Tuners will affect ammo, but not nearly as much as some optimists might hope or think. If they did, everyone and every rifle would have them.

You are absolutely right about taking internet claims with a healthy dose of scepticism (especially when it's accompanied with a very limited amount of supporting data or only a single group). Too many shooters and readers believe the things that get repeated on various forums. Just because a lot of guys repeat them, doesn't make them true. Reliable data or evidence is always more persuasive.

Don't bother wasting time with weighing rounds, sorting by rim thickness, or using accurizing short cuts. They don't work. Serious competitors don't sort their ammo. They test for the lots that shoot well.

Good to know... Thanks.