The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD
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MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
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- Toronto, ON
Whenever people say "the Templar is front heavy" - can you say where the balance point is for you? Where does the balance point need to be for you to say it's front heavy? Where is the balance point for you on a well-balanced rifle?
I'm not denying that the rifle is heavy. It is. But balance wise, the balance point is just forward of the magwell or right on the front edge of the magwell. When I put on a LPVO, the balance point is almost in the middle of the magwell, which, as I understand it, is actually where you want the balance point to be in most non-bullpup rifles.
I guess I'm having trouble understanding - when people say something is "front heavy", are they always comparing to AR-15s? What's their basis of comparison and what's their ideal?
Figg33 said:
Glad you're having a good time with it, Figg33. I really like mine as well. That piston issue and the trunnion plate screws are something to watch for, as is the e-clip on the bolt release. I hope everything continues to go well for you! I agree that the TriggerTech trigger has to be one of the best investment/add-on additions I've made (bought my Crusader 9 with the TriggerTech installed).
depends on how you shoot. use a modern technique - square to target, short stock - then gun will feel front heavy. use a ww11 stance like a little green toy soldier - shoulder back - and weight of firearm will be further back and not feel so front heavy.
modern shooting techniques don't work well with canadian NR rifles.
modern shooting techniques don't work well with canadian NR rifles.
You ever held and fired an SKS? It's a good gun to use as a comparison most of us have fired it. It is not even close to as well balanced as an SKS, which who even considers the SKS as a modern "well balanced" weapon. Hold this in a firing position and do the same with an SKS and tell me the Crusader is not badly (terribly) balanced. Also its 10 lbs (not 8.2) and about the same length as the SKS. As to where the balance point has to be for me to consider it front heavy, I don't know, I'm not going to pull out a weight scale I just know this gun is very front heavy and much heavier overall even compared to a WW2 era rifle. Is that disputed?
MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, ON
I've shot SKSs, Lee Enfield No. 4s, M-14s, AR-15s, Mosins and a number of other modern and WWII rifles, so yes, I've held and fired an SKS.
The Templar is heavier than most rifles, but not the heaviest I've shot, and the point of balance is about where I'd expect it to be on a modern rifle, maybe an inch or so forward.
If having the point of balance an inch forward of where you expect makes it "front heavy", I guess it's "front heavy" for you. I don't personally find it "front heavy".
Based on anecdotal evidence, the Templar may be heavier with no accessories than the manufacturer-claimed weight of 8.2 lbs. Anyone want to pull out a scale and weigh theirs? I've seen people claim it's as heavy as 10 lbs empty (which to me can't be true) and others have said that it's close to 8.2 lbs. [edit - a Templar gen 2 owner weighed theirs and showed photographic evidence that the gen 2 weighs 3700g empty, or 8.16 lbs. https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...pectre-LTD?p=20116766&viewfull=1#post20116766 - this means that the gen 1 definitely did not weigh 8.2 lbs as advertised and is likely closer to 9 lbs +/- naked ]
If the rifle weighs 8.2 lbs empty as advertised, then here is where it fits in comparison to a number of other rifles ranging from WWII to modern era:
Mosin-Nagant M44: 9.0 lbs
Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk I: 9.6lbs
M1 Garand: 9.5 lbs
SKS: 8.2-8.4 lbs (depending on what reference you read)
AK-47: 9.5 lbs
M-14: 9.2 lbs
AK-74: 6.7 lbs
M-16A4: 7.2 lbs
M4A1: 6.4 lbs
IWI Tavor X95: 8.2lbs
B&T APC 556: 9 lbs [EDIT: added for completeness]
Here are the modern Canadian AR-180 based rifle weights:
BCL SRV2 Siberian: 6.9 lbs
Sterling Arms R18 MkII: 8.3 lbs
Kodiak WK180C Gen 2: 7.2 lbs
Spectre WS-MCR: 7.4 lbs
Crusader Arms Templar Gen 1: ~9 lbs (estimated)
Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2: 8.16 lbs (verified)
Lockhart Tactical Raven: 6.8 lbs [EDIT: added for completeness]
And a modern Czech firearm available in Canada:
Bren 2 Ms NR barrel (18.5") 7.6 lbs
It is among the heaviest of the non-prohibited 5.56mm rifles available in Canada, that is not in dispute. Generally speaking, the Templar is between 0.5 and 1.5 lbs heavier than most of its competition. Most of the reading I've done on where the center point should be on a modern, non precision carbine-style rifle says that it should be around the same point as the barrel nut, or rearward of that, to the middle of the mag well. My balance point on my Crusader 9, with nothing added to the rifle, is about 1/4-1/2" forward of the mag well. When I put a LPVO on, it's 1" back from the front of the magwell.
You say it's a heavy rifle? Absolutely, it is indisputably in the upper quartile of the weights of semi-automatic 5.56mm non-restricted barrel length rifles in Canada. Objectively, that is true.
You want to say it's front heavy? Sure, if you perceive it as such. Where a rifle feels "front-heavy" is subjective, to a point. I don't think you can say a rifle is not front heavy if the balance point is two inches or more forward of the centerpoint of the rifle. But it's not. So at what point is it "front heavy"? I think that decision is up to the shooter. It's clear you feel the rifle is front heavy, and you have every right to that opinion; I won't dispute it.
I've said where the balance point is on a Crusader 9 (see above). I'd love for Templar owners to indicate where, in relation to the front of the magwell, they're seeing the balance point when the gun is naked. Then, anyone reading those objective measurements/observations can make their own decision.
Is a Templar/Crusader 9 as easy to manipulate and do drills with as an AR-15? Nope, definitely not. Is it handier than a FAL? Yes. (low bar, I know) Can you maneuver it to get it on target? Yes. How well does it do follow up shots when it's heavy and the balance is a little more forward? Quite well, actually.
Which is more important to you for range shooting? That's your call. You want light and handy? The BCL Siberian SRV2, WK180C Gen 2 or the Lockhart Tactical Raven are all better choices by that metric; they also have their own draw backs: Siberian has gas valve issues, WK180 has piston breakage and Raven has BCGs breaking (hopefully solved with Gen 2 BCGs).
The Bren 2 is objectively better than all Canadian made 5.56mm SAs, but it's also $900-1700 more expensive. Similarly, the B&T APC is objectively better than the Bren 2 (in most categories except total weight), but it's $2850-3600 more than other 5.56mm SAs available in Canada. What do you want to pay for? I wanted a reliable, accurate rifle that was made in Canada that didn't break my budget. That's what I got. I knew it was heavier than most when I bought it. If you're considering this rifle, know this: it's heavy. Front-heavy/awkward? That's for you to decide.
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Weight is exactly why I'm looking at getting a break. The APC is awesome but 1.5 lbs is a lot, especially with that mostly infront of you. Add flashlights, IR or laser devices and now your point of balance is way in front of you.
the Bren 2 is unique in Canada as it gives all the benefits of an AR plus reliability. Something yet to be proven on the Siberian.
The crusader IMO, while a tank offers some reliability, is too heavy by the time you add accessories and would be better suited to a DRM role
the Bren 2 is unique in Canada as it gives all the benefits of an AR plus reliability. Something yet to be proven on the Siberian.
The crusader IMO, while a tank offers some reliability, is too heavy by the time you add accessories and would be better suited to a DRM role
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I have a Raven 5.56 arriving today. Website says its 6.8 lbs
MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, ON
I've had an opportunity to handle a Bren 2 with an 8" (!) barrel and it felt almost like a toy. I will be the first to admit that going from a rifle that weighs less than 7 pounds to shooting one which weighs over 9 with all the accessories on it is a big, big shift.
Update. Have now put 500 rounds through the Templar, still zero malfunctions and have not cleaned the rifle yet. With my new RapidStrike 1-6x scope I did 10, 5 shot groups at 100m. Averaged 1.93” (all hand loads) first pic is of an average group 2.02”. Second pic is of my last and best group of the day, I fired a 6th shot because I felt like I pulled one badly-the pulled shot is the farthest left one. The five shot group is 1.25” and even with the pulled shot its 1.5”. Not bad with old eyes and just a 6x scope.
MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Thanks for the pics! Good to see real-world 100m shots.
Yeah, it's definitely a clean-firing rifle. I left mine for 500 rounds between cleanings and it was hardly dirty at all (I cleaned it anyway at 500 rounds, though). Glad you're also having few problems. If you do run into any issues, post here and I'll add it to the thread on Reddit where I'm keeping track:
https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns...der_arms_templar_crusader_9_maintenance_tips/
1000rd update. At 500rds I did a standard cleaning of the rifle (it was very clean but did it anyways). After 1000rds still no issues, no FTF or FTE, I continue to check for any of the issues previously mentioned and have found none including the gas pin. She is a heavy beast but I like her (no heavier than my FN or HK91) the balance point with the 1-6x scope for me feels to be an inch or so in front of the mag well. Primarily I've been doing 25m shooting with the rifle as well as some fun closer fast firing drills. But I have done some more 100m shooting and have improved my groupings a little bit, my last 10 5 shot groups averaged 1.88" (handloads with 55gr Campro bullets with 27.2gr of BL-C(2) powder). Pic shows a 1.97" group from my last outing at the 100m range. Next update at 1500rd.
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Bit of a tangent, but....
i was in agreement with you right up until you said the above. I do not find this to be true at all. The Bren 2 is superior to the B+T in most regards, their relative weights being the biggest single advantage of the Bren 2. The B+T's tight tolerances are a detriment when the firearm is exposed to foreign matter, as there is little to no room for grime to accumulate away from the critical bearing surfaces. Due to those same tight tolerances the B+T requires more lubrication than the Bren 2 to avoid metal on metal wear. I could go on, but IMHO, the Bren 2 is superior to the B+T rifle/carbine in just about every regard. I say this as the very satisfied owner of a B+T APC308, APC 223 and APC9 as well as the Bren 2. I also enjoy the benefit of having carried and employed a number of different select-fire weapons in my 34 year infantry career. More $$ does not always translate into superior practical performance. This would be one such case,
YMM (obviously) V, however one need only look at ongoing European small arms replacement trends to see the "ground truth" so to speak. Just about everyone who is currently adopting a new service rifle is selecting the Bren 2 based on its battlefield success in the Ukrainian conflict. Nobody is buying the B+T product in any quantity, at least not for advertised rearmament programs. The Czechs, Hungary, Slovakia and Ukraine are all adopting the Bren 2 as their primary service weapon, whereas other nations such as France, Vietnam, Mexico, Indonesia have purchased the Bren for specific branches or units of their Armed Forces or National Police. The B+T line? Not so much....
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MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, ON
You have more experience with the B&T than I then, so I will retract my statement about the B&T which was based on opinions I had read here and at Reddit. Until I have more time with a B&T in my hands, I will reserve further judgement. I have had range time with the Bren 2 and Crusader 9, so I do think I can make that distinction.
The Firearm Blog conducted a review of the Templar and ripped it to shreds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLS4lddJ74s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLS4lddJ74s
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
I'm shocked and surprised.
MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Yup, that's not a good look.
I'll cut and paste some comments that I already posted at Reddit to this thread. It's hard to hear for people like me who like this platform but it's honest criticism. It's clear that they example they got was a bad one, but saying it's just a bad example and it doesn't represent all of them, well that doesn't cut it - CA has to do better with QA/QC.
So at 3:17 and just before, they talk about doing the HK slap, and then he doesn't actually do an HK slap - he does a full charging of the handle. Very strange. I can say from experience that you can definitely HK slap this rifle and if you do it correctly, it will go into battery each time.
At 6:20, they mention a lot of FTE issues. I've never had one. It's unfortunate that they ran into this. QA/QC issues, I guess, and bad luck that a bad example made it into a prominent reviewer's hands.
The fact that the placement of the charging handle CAN interfere with some mounts is true, I've mentioned that in my reviews previously, but honestly, if you just spend an extra minute or two when you buy your mount (or even when you place it) to make sure it doesn't interfere, it's not an issue.
The comments at 8:30 are bang on - it's madness to try to sell an expensive rifle that's heavier than even similar AR-180-based models available in the US like the BRN-180 or similar, and it is heavy for sure. I don't think it was a was a wise move for CA to try to get into the US market - it's a solidly AR-15 shop down there.
I've never seen an example of the failure of one of the guide rods reported with any Canadian-border side models so far, but the issue with the screws in the side plate has been reported by one other person so far.
So, it sounds like the particular example they are using had a problem with the side steel reinforcement plate and screws, which may have caused issues with the way the BCG was moving and caused extractor issues. The guide rod pop out shouldn't be happening for sure as well. Too bad.
A disappointing review, for sure. One should not make the argument that "it's just a bad apple/bad example that they got" - that's a QA/QC issue.
It looks like they fired a decent number of rounds. I will say that I've put 900+ rounds through my Crusader 9 Sentinel (which is, aside from a magwell configuration change and a few other cosmetic differences, functionally identical to the Templar) and I've not had a single FTF, FTE or over-insert of a magazine in all of those rounds fired. Maybe the magwell on a Templar is different enough from the Sentinel lower that it makes a difference? I don't know.
Every review is important and helps us be more informed about our market options.
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MacPapRonin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, ON
It's not a smart move - a losing proposition at best... disastrously bad marketing at worst, this video review being a case in point.
Even a small number of sales in a huge market like the US may easily dwarf the Canadian profit potential. And the likelihood of the company getting killed by arbitrary government orders is a lot lower. Plenty of people who are collectors and don't necessarily want just another AR.
Now they really need to get their QA/QC in order.....
Now they really need to get their QA/QC in order.....
