Hawken set trigger not setting off caps

Power Pill

Power Pill

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I have a CVA hawken rifle with dual set triggers. If i pull the front trigger without setting it the cap goes off and fires the gun no problem, but if i set the front trigger (by pulling the rear trigger first) the hammer doesnt come down with enough force to set off the cap.
Anyone have any idea what might be causing this?
 
Please clarify:
I am not familiar with the CVA setup, but assume it works like most other double set triggers.

Are you saying that, when setting with the rear trigger and releasing with the front trigger, the hammer falls, but with less force than when fired with just the front trigger? If so, I would start by looking at the sear/fly/tumbler relationship. When firing with just the front trigger, the trigger lifts the sear and holds it there as long as the trigger is depressed. That allows the sear nose to clear the half #### notch as the tumbler rotates and should not require a fly. When the trigger is set and fired, the rear trigger slaps the sear to release it, but that is a momentary action. The purpose of the fly is to ensure the sear nose clears the half #### notch. The sear nose rides over the fly. If the fly is not working properly, or missing, the sear nose can catch on the half #### notch and either stop or slow the hammer fall.
If the set trigger is not releasing the hammer, that would be an entirely different situation.
 
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B_noser said:
Please clarify:
I am not familiar with the CVA setup, but assume it works like most other double set triggers.

Are you saying that, when setting with the rear trigger and releasing with the front trigger, the hammer falls, but with less force than when fired with just the front trigger?
Click to expand...

Correct.
this is my first muzzle loader so im not sure how the CVA setup compares to others.
is the fly part of the trigger mechanism or the lock mechanism? im not that familiar with these rifles yet.
 
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The fly is a very small and easily lost part and is part of the lock mechanism. It is attached to the tumbler and is held in place by the bridle. It swivels back and forth, allowing the sear nose to drop into the half #### notch as the hammer is drawn back and swings forward when the hammer is lowered - blocking the sear nose from engaging the half #### notch.
http: //home.insightbb.com/~bspen/lockfunction.html.
In the picture, the bridle has been removed and the fly is "H"

Is this a used gun? If so, take a look at the lock internals to see if the fly is present and able to move freely. If you purchased the gun new, did you disassemble the lock and possibly lose the fly?
 
B_noser said:
The fly is a very small and easily lost part and is part of the lock mechanism. It is attached to the tumbler and is held in place by the bridle. It swivels back and forth, allowing the sear nose to drop into the half #### notch as the hammer is drawn back and swings forward when the hammer is lowered - blocking the sear nose from engaging the half #### notch.
http: //home.insightbb.com/~bspen/lockfunction.html.
In the picture, the bridle has been removed and the fly is "H"

Is this a used gun? If so, take a look at the lock internals to see if the fly is present and able to move freely. If you purchased the gun new, did you disassemble the lock and possibly lose the fly?
Click to expand...

I bought it used.

i disassembled it. this is what it looks like
 

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Power Pill said:
I bought it used.

i disassembled it. this is what it looks like
Click to expand...

That is weird setup indeed! On a lot of (not all) locks it is possible to put the fly in backwards .... that fly looks like it is sitting WAY too high above the tumbler - see if you can flip it around.

If you can drop the hammer using just the front trigger, what you have is a double set - double throw trigger, using just the front trigger you hold the sear off the tumbler throughout it's whole cycle - you can't actually release the trigger before the hammer drops (too fast!)
Using this setup as a set trigger, the rear trigger bar hits the sear bar, releasing it from the notch for a microsecond - the nose of the sear slides over the fly and slides over the surface of the tumbler (as opposed to single throw, which holds the nose of the sear clear through the whole cycle)

So - that fly looks wrong. Look for damage to the nose of the sear - if it is actually hitting the fly and not sliding over it, there may be dings, dents or a chip out of the nose.
Check the bearing surface of the tumbler is not marred or corroded, same with the sear - it's angle in relation to the tumbler looks like it is actually digging into it.
Check the sear to see if someone has tried to "improve" it by stoning/filing the nose.

All this is assuming your are 100% sure the hammer is actually hitting the cap/nipple from the set position.....

Much better quality replacement lock for these are easy to come by if none of that pans out.
 
Not the highest quality lock I have seen.
As is apparent in the photo, the fly is on the lock plate side of the tumbler and is held in place between the tumbler and lock plate. I don't see anything that appears to be backwards or out of place. However, that fly appears to stand way too high in relation to the half #### notch and I am betting that is slowing the tumbler/hammer as the sear nose, which is under spring pressure, rides up and over the fly.
I do not believe the nose of the sear is bent. That is easily checked by checking how the nose of the sear engages the half and full #### notches.

sean69 has repeated much of what I said in posts 2 and 4, but I agree with him on one additional point he made. Replacing the lock with a better quality after-market unit would be a step forward when it comes to reliability.
 
Interesting , I saw a CVA Hawken lock that a friend had Taylor Sapergia adjust, he installed a sear adjusting screw like this one has- they don't come with them from the factory!
Cat
 
B_noser said:
Not the highest quality lock I have seen.
As is apparent in the photo, the fly is on the lock plate side of the tumbler and is held in place between the tumbler and lock plate. I don't see anything that appears to be backwards or out of place. However, that fly appears to stand way too high in relation to the half #### notch and I am betting that is slowing the tumbler/hammer as the sear nose, which is under spring pressure, rides up and over the fly.
I do not believe the nose of the sear is bent. That is easily checked by checking how the nose of the sear engages the half and full #### notches.

sean69 has repeated much of what I said in posts 2 and 4, but I agree with him on one additional point he made. Replacing the lock with a better quality after-market unit would be a step forward when it comes to reliability.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. Do you have any recommendations on where to get a new lock?
 
Have you thoroughly cleaned the lock.

Currently on my second CVA Hawken 50 cal. The lock was so dirty it took three passes in the ultrasonic to get it clean. Then I lubed it and worked the lock.

I am also having issues of the trigger not setting off the lock. Treating it to the ultrasonic right now.


Try pulling the trigger with the lock out. That way you can see how the trigger bar is working. It may be getting stuck on the stock.

Best of luck. I love these cheap little guns.
 
You could see what Track of the Wolf has to offer. It would give you an idea of availability and cost. I believe L&R makes drop-in locks for some imports.
I wouldn't give up on that lock quite yet. Many issues are easily fixed, once one has determined the cause. I suspect the fly should be reduced in height and the slope the nose of the sear rides on made more gradual and polished. That is a hunch and I would not undertake modifications prior to fully understanding the ramifications.
A word to the wise: Do not try to remove the mainspring without a mainspring vise. There are likely YouTube videos on how to do it.
 
B_noser said:
You could see what Track of the Wolf has to offer. It would give you an idea of availability and cost. I believe L&R makes drop-in locks for some imports.
I wouldn't give up on that lock quite yet. Many issues are easily fixed, once one has determined the cause. I suspect the fly should be reduced in height and the slope the nose of the sear rides on made more gradual and polished. That is a hunch and I would not undertake modifications prior to fully understanding the ramifications.
A word to the wise: Do not try to remove the mainspring without a mainspring vise. There are likely YouTube videos on how to do it.
Click to expand...

i can actually remove and re-install the mainspring quite easily by hand....could that be an issue?
 
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