APC .223 Non-Restricted vs Bren 2 Non-Restricted

P

Poppa9

New member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Location
Ottawa
Anyone have opinions on these two cool looking rifles?

Huge advantage of the Bren 2 NR was the price....originally....but now the pricing is very close to the APC because shorter barreled Bren 2s are being modified for the longer NR barrel.

Apparently the Bren 2 with NR barrel can be lighter than the APC, but the APC is an OEM system whereas the Bren 2 NR is a modified OEM.

Any comments on one versus the other?
 
Had the chance to try both a couple of years ago, and went with the Bren2 for a few reasons

- MUCH cheaper... as low as $2200 Cdn all in from IRG, plusthe, what, $600ish Dlask was doing the NR barrels for?
- Ergonomics just as good if not better
- better balance and lighter weight.

That being said I'd still love an R-length APC223, if our government wasn't so ####ed up about that sort of thing.
 
Throw Lockhart Tactical Raven in there. Float a quality barrel spun onto it and like an AR, it will run circles around both the Bren and APC (with respect to accuracy and eggos*)


*Edited to add what I mean by 'run circles around' the Bren and APC.

- The APC is too heavy for what it is. Take off the hand guard and it is surprisingly well balanced on the front end, but running one without a front hand guard is pretty impractical. The butt stock that comes with them are nothing short of ridiculous, and the trigger for what you pay for the rifle as pretty bad.
Triggers can be replaced and the replacement ACR style stock from B&T is fantastic, but the weight is still there.

- The Bren is light, good ergos and quality construction - perfect for its intended role as a service rifle. But it leaves a lot to be desired with respect to accuracy, making it a poor sporting rifle choice imho.
 
Last edited:
beltfed said:
Throw Lockhart Tactical Raven in there. Float a quality barrel spun onto it and like an AR, it will run circles around both the Bren and APC.
Click to expand...

Replace "Lockhart Tactical Raven" with "ATRS Modern Sporter" and I'd agree with you. I'm personally still amazed that anything from Lockhart functions at all. Or actually exists, for that matter.
 
Depends what you're looking for

Bren 2 is lighter

APC is more robust and built better IMO

Accuracy wise they're the same

Trigger stock on the Bren is better

Stock, the safety switch and ergos on the APC are better, definitely more ambidextrous than the Bren. The bolt open on the APC is really nice too

Bren has more AR-15 like controls

The Bren stock is not my fav, I dont love the LOP adjustment, better than the APC skeleton stock, not better than the PRO stock.

APC the mags seat much easier. you can seat a full cross mag on a closed bolt with one finger, The Bren on a closed bolt you really have to shove it. I've had a couple feeding issues with cross mags in the Bren, absolutely 0 issues with the APC

If the Bren doesnt have the HBI Handguard the APC wins, if it has the HBI then the Bren wins.
 
The apc 556 and 308 are known for not being reliable and the bren was just adopted by multiple militaries. The apc is name brand and nothing else, considerably heavier than the bren. A well built Atrs modern sporter and the bren are pretty close honestly. Atrs still beats it for parts availability.
 
BigMasterShrek said:
The apc 556 and 308 are known for not being reliable and the bren was just adopted by multiple militaries. The apc is name brand and nothing else, considerably heavier than the bren. A well built Atrs modern sporter and the bren are pretty close honestly. Atrs still beats it for parts availability.
Click to expand...

Says who?
 
BigMasterShrek said:
.. and the bren was just adopted by multiple militaries.
Click to expand...

That is very vague and information is limited. For example, Bren 2 is used by some units in Ukraine, but not adopted (as in "accepted into military service"). And that fact that it is being used doesn't mean there are no issues with it. As far as I'm aware only two countries - Czech Republic and Hungary are actually "accepted" it into military service.
 
Its nice to have a longer HBI handguard but if you have the one that originally comes on the 16 inch barrel version of thee bren you'll be fine (not to mention the 15.8 inch one is $500 retail for roughly 3 extra inches of rail space). I find it hard to believe that anyone who has shot these back to back would choose anything but the bren. It has complete ambi controls and with the factory brake doesn't move at all. Swapping the stock on the bren is expensive but swapping a stock on any of the rifle caliber APCs is somehow more expensive and deals with hydraulic buffers. The bren trigger is fantastic, all the controls where they should be, but I will say they like aluminum mags and gen 3 pmags more than other types. Also im pretty sure that Gign has adopted it, and although maybe not technically a national military they certainly shoot more than nearly any other unit in the world so it counts for a lot in my opinion
 
Guns are best judged on how they retain value on the 2nd hand market, x95s are better than anything b&t makes, they sell 2nd hand for 2500 typically which is retail before tax. Brens sell for 4-4500 which is still to much but this is canada. B&t apcs SIT on the 2nd hand market 1,000 less than retail and still don't get picked up, even with good optic combos, etc. Because those who buy them and actually use them go "oh wait this doesn't work good enough to depend my life on." then the ad sits up for weeks or months as the price drops get updated. APCS are the town bike, they get passed around and used because no one loves them enough to justify the price. APCS are essentially Swiss wk180s/M&M M10XS, mag picky, ammo picky, hex heads working themselves loose. Can't imagine having to use Loctite on my 5500$ rifle, LOL.
 
Last edited:
BigMasterShrek said:
Guns are best judged on how they retain value on the 2nd hand market, x95s are better than anything b&t makes, they sell 2nd hand for 2500 typically which is retail before tax. Brens sell for 4-4500 which is still to much but this is canada. B&t apcs SIT on the 2nd hand market 1,000 less than retail and still don't get picked up, even with good optic combos, etc. Because those who buy them and actually use them go "oh wait this doesn't work good enough to depend my life on." then the ad sits up for weeks or months as the price drops get updated. APCS are the town bike, they get passed around and used because no one loves them enough to justify the price. APCS are essentially Swiss wk180s/M&M M10XS, mag picky, ammo picky, hex heads working themselves loose. Can't imagine having to use Loctite on my 5500$ rifle, LOL.
Click to expand...

I don't know where you're getting your information. APCs hold their value extremely well. I think a big reason they sit on the market so long is because they are expensive. Accuracy International Bolt guns have the same problem.

I did a carbine course this summer with the APC and it was the ONLY rifle, the whole course with 0 issues. The X95 next to me was failing let and right, was super mag picky and suffered constant feeding issues. I ran cross mags, metal mags, gen 2 and 3 p mags with absolutely 0 issues. No Bolts backing out, no loctite. The only downside of the Gen 2 APC is its a bit front heavy due to the hand guard and barrel (heavy barrel). The Pro version fixes this completely. But if you shoot from a bench and aren't running and gunning the HB would be preferred.

X95s are over gassed and will work themselves apart in far less time than the APC will. Go watch Administrative results and GT's video on the X95 in the slow mo footage I couldn't believe how over gassed it is. And I like x95s. And dont even get me started on ergos. A APC or Bren is faster and more ergonomic, hands down. An X95's gimmicky bolt release is cool but a total pain if you're trying to lock the bolt back on a loaded mag.
 
BigMasterShrek said:
Guns are best judged on how they retain value on the 2nd hand market, x95s are better than anything b&t makes, they sell 2nd hand for 2500 typically which is retail before tax. Brens sell for 4-4500 which is still to much but this is canada. B&t apcs SIT on the 2nd hand market 1,000 less than retail and still don't get picked up, even with good optic combos, etc. Because those who buy them and actually use them go "oh wait this doesn't work good enough to depend my life on." then the ad sits up for weeks or months as the price drops get updated. APCS are the town bike, they get passed around and used because no one loves them enough to justify the price. APCS are essentially Swiss wk180s/M&M M10XS, mag picky, ammo picky, hex heads working themselves loose. Can't imagine having to use Loctite on my 5500$ rifle, LOL.
Click to expand...

As someone who looked for a used APC very patiently the ones sitting $1000 below were almost always Gen 1 and Gen 2. The most recent shipment of the APC223 (easily identified by the ambi non-reciprocating charging handle) is retaining value very well. Perhaps you’ve stumbled upon viewpoints other than what I’ve seen, but the consensus seems to be that the APC223 is equal in every way to the Bren 2 as far as reliability goes.
 
mareshow said:
Depends what you're looking for

Bren 2 is lighter

APC is more robust and built better IMO

Accuracy wise they're the same

Trigger stock on the Bren is better

Stock, the safety switch and ergos on the APC are better, definitely more ambidextrous than the Bren. The bolt open on the APC is really nice too

Bren has more AR-15 like controls

The Bren stock is not my fav, I dont love the LOP adjustment, better than the APC skeleton stock, not better than the PRO stock.

APC the mags seat much easier. you can seat a full cross mag on a closed bolt with one finger, The Bren on a closed bolt you really have to shove it. I've had a couple feeding issues with cross mags in the Bren, absolutely 0 issues with the APC

If the Bren doesnt have the HBI Handguard the APC wins, if it has the HBI then the Bren wins.
Click to expand...

Interesting that you mentioned that the accuracy is the same. From what I've seen it seems like the Bren's accuracy is hit or miss depending on what barrel you get while AFAIK the APC's barrel is made by Lothar Walther (makes some of the most consistent barrels in the world)

Do I have that right? Or am I misinformed
 
Regulate said:
I find it hard to believe that anyone who has shot these back to back would choose anything but the bren. It has complete ambi controls and with the factory brake doesn't move at all. Swapping the stock on the bren is expensive but swapping a stock on any of the rifle caliber APCs is somehow more expensive and deals with hydraulic buffers. The bren trigger is fantastic, all the controls where they should be, but I will say they like aluminum mags and gen 3 pmags more than other types. Also im pretty sure that Gign has adopted it, and although maybe not technically a national military they certainly shoot more than nearly any other unit in the world so it counts for a lot in my opinion
Click to expand...

The accuracy on the Bren appears to be the sh!ts from what I see shooting against a couple over the summer in Service Rifle matches (100 - 500m).
That is with original and aftermarket, NR, 'match' barrels.
Might be great for 3 gun or non-competitive shoosting, but doesn't hold a candle to others including the APC, even with that rifles failings.
It is light, reliable and great handling, so it gets high praise in other areas for sure - I'm not calling it a turd, but the accuracy is...

Frank2368 said:
Interesting that you mentioned that the accuracy is the same. From what I've seen it seems like the Bren's accuracy is hit or miss depending on what barrel you get while AFAIK the APC's barrel is made by Lothar Walther (makes some of the most consistent barrels in the world)

Do I have that right? Or am I misinformed
Click to expand...

Bang on, although the APC barrel is pretty thin and MPI walks out as rounds accumulate and it gets heated up.
The CZ accuracy appears to be ho-hum from the off.
 
taloncg said:
As someone who looked for a used APC very patiently the ones sitting $1000 below were almost always Gen 1 and Gen 2. The most recent shipment of the APC223 (easily identified by the ambi non-reciprocating charging handle) is retaining value very well. Perhaps you’ve stumbled upon viewpoints other than what I’ve seen, but the consensus seems to be that the APC223 is equal in every way to the Bren 2 as far as reliability goes.
Click to expand...

Hahaha, they fixed it this time guys! The gen 3 actually works. Lmao, literally wk180 teir rifles
 
beltfed said:
Bang on, although the APC barrel is pretty thin and MPI walks out as rounds accumulate and it gets heated up.
The CZ accuracy appears to be ho-hum from the off.
Click to expand...

Seems to be more or less inevitable in button or CHF barrels especially with a thin profile. I was going to try to import a Krieger (cut rifling which doesn't create stress in the barrel and therefore little change in point of impact) for my MS receiver set but that plan is put on hold until the court case goes in our favour or the OIC is reversed. I also thought about getting a Raven 5.56 and importing the Krieger but from what I've seen it's very unreliable as well and I'm not about to put a barrel of that quality in unreliable receiver like that. Seems like there's no option left in Canada that even comes even remotely close to the MS.
 
I'm not aware of any issues other that the bolt carrier that Lockhart came out with, which is admittedly 'pants on head', but once that is sorted, it should run like an AR.
If quality parts are used in the build, it should prove out to be reliable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom