What Would an Investment Grade Long Branch No 4 Mk 1 T Sniper Rifle Set Me Back?

Bartok5 said:
Acknowledged, however we know that the last shipment(s) of LB Snipers made it to England, but arrived too late to be issued for use during the fighting. Thus, we have a complete shipment (or shipments) of LB Snipers in the 90L8### range that were shipped back to Canada just as they had arrived in England during the latter stages of the war. These are the minty, unissued LB Snipers that are occasionally still available today, as was the case with the rifle that I just purchased. Somebody must know roughly how many LB Snipers were in those final shipments returned from England. If less than 1500 LB Snipers were manufactured of all models, it stands to reason that the final rifles from the 90L8### series that were returned to Canada were relatively fewer in number.... perhaps just a couple of hundred?
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From the internet article, "Is my Lee Enfield sniper rifle a fake?" https://www.enfield-rifles.com/is-my-lee-enfield-sniper-rifle-a-fake_topic3353.html

'Canadian Long Branch rifles closely parallel British production, with some specific deviations and much smaller quantities. Rifles delivered before May 1944 were missing the characteristic ‘T’ stamp on the sidewall. In 1943 Long Branch delivered 71 sniper rifles with Canadian-made Research Enterprises Ltd. (REL) C No.32 MK.1 scopes, possibly in the 34L###x serial number range. These first deliveries were selected from the nearly 230,000 No.4 rifles produced in 1943 (numbered 23L###x to 56L###x). Law’s book suggests four distinct serial number ranges for No.4 Mk1*(T)'s: 1944 production rifles numbered 71L###x with REL C No.32 MK. 1 and 2 scopes; 350 odd 1944 production rifles numbered 74L0001 to 74L0350 with civilian production Lyman Alaskan scopes (bought as a stop gap when REL couldn't deliver fast enough); approximately 84 1944 production rifles numbered 80L8### with the REL C No.67 Mk.I scope; and a final batch of 376 1945 dated 90L8### rifles with REL C No.32 MK.3 scopes.'
 
Ah, there's the answer I've been looking for - thanks maple_leaf_eh! The number of Long Branch Sniper Rifles produced in the final batch of 1945 with serial range 90L8### was 376 total units, all fitted with No 32 Mk 3 Scopes. Now I know just how relatively scarce my matching Rifle, Scope and Mounting Bracket are - 1/376.... that's not a lot of rifles (or scopes) when you think about it....
 
Bartok5 said:
the ad states right off the bat that the rifle and scope are NOT matching. Add to the fact that the rifle and scope are not properly collimated for one another, the sad fact that the rifle is not even Canadian in origin. As stated by Robbs, it appearss to be a plain old BSA Shirley British rifle that is "force-matched" to a Scope and Mounting Bracket for sale as a "complete" set. The price seems more than a little bit steep for what you would be getting, seeing as how I paid the same amount for an all -matching Long Branch setup.

Definitely a case of buyer beware. At least they are up front about the fact that the rifle and scope are a mismatch...
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For buyers: "Buy the book, then buy the gun." If you are buying an expensive firearm, you will want several good reference books. At least one collector was lucky enough to have Lee-Enfield authority and author of THE best books on Lee-Enfield, Ian Skennerton from Australia, standing beside him at a U.S. gun show to offer advice! We cannot all be that lucky!

MISMATCHED vs. FORCE MATCHED

The rifle at Shooter's Choice is indeed a typical BSA, serial number might be V32456. The scope serial number on the wrist of the butt is not shown, and it is now fitted with No. 32 Mk. 3 scope 23147 which was mated with rifle 5247 (?) judging by the label inside the scope case, but a difffernt number apparently on the bracket. Sadly the photos are not clear enough to reveal these numbers. This is a "mismatch" apparently. If so it is typical as most No. 4 (T) sets in North America are mismatched, apparently due to the ways that they were sold surplus. The serial numbers have NOT been altered, except in a few cases by unscrupulous owners. Happily because of the Internet and cooperative owners and enthusiasts, we are sometimes able to reconnect the dots. For example a fellow in California has a BSA No. 4 Mk. I (T). I found the scope set matching it on Gunbroker and alerted him. He was not a member of that forum, so I acted as an intermediary to help him get that scope set. A pleasant follow-up was that in gratitude, he offered to trade his Canadian made No. 15 Mk. I transit chest for a British made one. Naturally I agreed! A win-win situation. :)

The term "force matched", as used with Soviet Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles for example, is for me and likely for others, a different situation. In those cases, a scope from another rifle or from stores was not only put onto the rifle, but the scope bracket was also physically renumbered to match the rifle and the military or contract armourers presumably collimated the "new" scope to the rifle. The British also did this on No. 4 (T). Some rifles went through three or four scopes in their service life. In each case the old serial number of the wrist of the butt or scope bracket would be cancelled out ######, ////// or ------- and the new numbers stamped on adjacent to it. Note that they did not overstamp the new number directly onto the old number (hard to read and easy to make a mistake presumbably) and when we see that ooccasionally, it is to me a sign of civilian tinkering.
 
seaforth72 said:
....
The term "force matched", as used with Soviet Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles for example, is for me and likely for others, a different situation. In those cases, a scope from another rifle or from stores was not only put onto the rifle, but the scope bracket was also physically renumbered to match the rifle and the military or contract armourers presumably collimated the "new" scope to the rifle. The British also did this on No. 4 (T). Some rifles went through three or four scopes in their service life. In each case the old serial number of the wrist of the butt or scope bracket would be cancelled out ######, ////// or ------- and the new numbers stamped on adjacent to it. Note that they did not overstamp the new number directly onto the old number (hard to read and easy to make a mistake presumably) and when we see that occasionally, it is to me a sign of civilian tinkering.
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SHHH! You'll give away too many of the requisite authentification skills. BTW any records on Mk III scopes 24704 or 24175?
 
Yes, that appears to be a less common version of the Scout Regiment Telescope, although I note that this example is a 4-Draw (4 sections extend from the main body section) whereas the average Scout Telescope was a shorter and handier 3-Draw. I also note that the Leather cover on the Scope Body has integrated loops for a leather Carrying Strap, which is again different from the standard Scout Regiment Telescope which comes with a Tubular Leather Carrying Case equipped with its own Carrying Strap. So, definitely a Scout-style Telescope, if not exactly a "Scout Regiment Telescope". I wonder what the magnification is? The standard Scout Telescope is 20x....
 
My scope has arrived back. It came separately from the rifle cause I'm a sucker and agreed to an upsell on a repro No8 scope tin. :cool: Actually it was a good deal as the price was less than half what I see the identical unit selling for on eBay. Anyway, it is shocking just how heavy the metal case is with the scope etc inside. If I was a sniper, the later canvas soft case would have def been my choice.

I see there are No8 Mk2 repros around but the price seems pretty high. Not sure how easy they would be to find anyway.

Case No8 Mk2.JPG
 

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I Dont Care About You said:
My scope has arrived back. It came separately from the rifle cause I'm a sucker and agreed to an upsell on a repro No8 scope tin. :cool: Actually it was a good deal as the price was less than half what I see the identical unit selling for on eBay. Anyway, it is shocking just how heavy the metal case is with the scope etc inside. If I was a sniper, the later canvas soft case would have def been my choice.

I see there are No8 Mk2 repros around but the price seems pretty high. Not sure how easy they would be to find anyway.
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Nice Case with crisp, clear British markings. Here's my Canadian R.E.L. version:



20230516-170820.jpg



Here's my almost Complete Equipment Schedule (CES) for a No 4 Mk 1* (T) and its 2-man Sniper Detachment of Sniper and Spotter. Missing are 2 x Denison Smocks, a STEN Mk II or V machine carbine, a 2nd Sniper Netted Veil, a Mk III Prismatic Compass (still inbound with Leather Case and Carry Strap) and Ammunition and Ordnance (eg. Smoke and Fragmentation Grenades). Sorry, but I am simply too lazy to gather up the Denison smocks from my uniform room. Other than the aforementioned items (and possibly a wris####ch in lieu of the Pocket-Watch), this represents a CES for a Canadian or British Sniper Det.


20230516-172348.jpg



All original items, from Left To Right:

- No 4 Mk 1 Bayonet (normally left behind, but useful for corralling POWs or probing for mines)
- R.E.L. Scope Case No 8 Mk 2
- Scout Regiment Telescope Case with Carrying Strap
- Sniper Netted Veil
- Pocket Watch (GSTP and "C" Broad Arrow-marked)
- Scout Regiment 3-Draw Telescope and R.E.L. Tripod, Telescope No 21 Mk 5 C1A1. Note: The Tripod was NOT a part of British CES for a Sniper Det despite it being a very useful bit of kit
- Mdl 1907 Leather Sling
- Rifle or SMG Cleaning Kit
- No 4 Mk 1 Rifle Case (does not fit Rifle with Scope mounted)
- R.E.L. 6x Prismatic Binoculars with C-Broad Arrow-marked Binoculars Case
- Trade Pattern General Purpose Time Piece - Wris####ch (corner of Transit Chest)
 
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Yeah, I've got the STEN Mk II covered as well, but not the Mk V or any of the sneaky "S" versions! I really need to find a 12(3) Long Branch STEN Mk II one day so that I can retire this European-manufactured mongrel....


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If I had an all original N04 Mk1*(T) I`d let it go for around $40K, highly sought after, now a days unobtainable and most if not all survivors are in prestigious collections, world wide.....
And because of the high prices and scarcity of all lee enfield T rifles, there`s probably more out there now than were ever made.
There is no doubt there`s probably one tucked away in someones Grandparents cottage some where, but even non firearms people know the values thanx to general web based knowledge and articles.
Back in the early 90`s while in the army, a Sgt friend of mine came back from out west with one, all matching and complete with chest and everything issued including content manifest, he got it for the princely some of $1200 which he thought was fare for rare.
In todays money thats roughly $2500, and we both know you aint getting much for $2500
 
shiloh87 said:
If I had an all original N04 Mk1*(T) I`d let it go for around $40K, highly sought after, now a days unobtainable and most if not all survivors are in prestigious collections, world wide.....
And because of the high prices and scarcity of all lee enfield T rifles, there`s probably more out there now than were ever made.
There is no doubt there`s probably one tucked away in someones Grandparents cottage some where, but even non firearms people know the values thanx to general web based knowledge and articles.
Back in the early 90`s while in the army, a Sgt friend of mine came back from out west with one, all matching and complete with chest and everything issued including content manifest, he got it for the princely some of $1200 which he thought was fare for rare.
In todays money thats roughly $2500, and we both know you aint getting much for $2500
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1. The initiator of this thread just bought a collector grade No4 (T) for $15k. Your fantasy of $40k is not based in reality.

2. There are currently two repro No4 (T) listed on Gun Post in the $2500 range and I saw a third sell at the recent Calgary gun show for that general range as well. So, it is entirely possible to get quite a lot for $2500 .... even if it isn't an original one.
 
One of the guns Lever brought in, back in the mists of time -complete deployment kit, as new, in transport case, Brit made and still slightly greasy - just sold locally for $12k. That's a deal, but not highway robbery. The guy who had that also has a Longbranch "LT" rifle, not for sale at any price.
 
There is an original No4(T) listed on ####### for $17,500

https://www.###########/firearms/rifles/ottawa/lee-enfield-no4t-sniper-rifle-kit-bsa-shirley

Description:

[FONT=&quot]1944 BSA Shirley Sniper Rifle[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in immaculate original condition obviously never issued [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bore is excellent and shoots fantastic [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wood is gorgeous and not dinged up or sanded with all proper visible cartouches [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All matching example In almost new old stock condition comes with original box also made by BSA and matched scope tin all numbers on wood and metal match rifle and scope[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This rifle is for the picky collector who wants a set that has been together and not messed with from time of manufacture [/FONT]
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For an all-matching British rifle with matched No 32 Scope the price ought to be in the $10K range. He is asking Long Branch price for a British Sniper, which is about $5K too much....
 
Bartok5 said:
For an all-matching British rifle with matched No 32 Scope the price ought to be in the $10K range. He is asking Long Branch price for a British Sniper, which is about $5K too much....
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I've seen a repro No4(T) listed for $7500 in a LGS.



jhawes said:
Agree. I would sell all of my brit snipers at 10k apiece
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You put up a real No4(T) and I'll find $10K. ;)













Actually I might not. I'm enjoying shooting my repro and I prob wouldn't shoot a $10K rifle. Also there is another repro that I am dying to get my hands on and the guy is gonna want some real money for it .... if I can convince him to sell.
 
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