What Would an Investment Grade Long Branch No 4 Mk 1 T Sniper Rifle Set Me Back?
- Thread starter Bartok5
- Start date
- Location
- Richmond, BC, CANADA
maple_leaf_eh wrotye "LB made less than 1000 T rifles and there are 3 Mks of CNo.32 scope. To find the whole is every No.4T collector's grail. Good luck!"
About 1,588 Long Branch sniper rifles are believed to have been made (ref. WITHOUT WARNING by the late Clive Law.)
There were five (5) Canadian No. 32 scope models:
C No. 32 Mk. I
C No. 32 Mk. IA
C No. 32 Mk. II
C No. 32 Mk. 3
C No. 32 Mk. 4
About 1,588 Long Branch sniper rifles are believed to have been made (ref. WITHOUT WARNING by the late Clive Law.)
There were five (5) Canadian No. 32 scope models:
C No. 32 Mk. I
C No. 32 Mk. IA
C No. 32 Mk. II
C No. 32 Mk. 3
C No. 32 Mk. 4
Well, then your Grandfather was a total Badass! My mistake - I thought from your earlier post that your Grandfather was the Chaplain who carried Cpl Jeremy to the Aide Station. Now I understand that he WAS Cpl Jeremy, whose brother was earlier killed by a German Sniper in Sicily during op Husky. Have I got that straight now? The article that I googled said this about your Nazi-killing Machine of a Grandpa:
"Unfortunately Cpl. Charles Jeremy, another West Nova Mi’maq, was wounded at the Arielli River on March 10, 1944 just about the time the Scout-Sniper Platoon was established. He had been sniping ever since the landing in Sicily. His brother L/Cpl J. J. P. Jeremy was killed in Sicily. Charlie slipped into the night to get even with the people who, as he noted, “did my brother dirt”. It is said that by the time of his return he had significantly thinned the ranks of the enemy. Legend had it that he had 60 kills to his credit by the time he was wounded in March 1944."
You come from a strong bloodline. Respect to your Grandfather for his service. May he RIP.
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maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I very carefully had a straight bit screwdriver on a BSA No.4(T) not long ago. The owner was concerned that the cheekrest was rolled too far to the right, as if set up for a left handed shooter. There was actual grainy sand against the wood under the cheekrest, but only one set of screw holes. The shooter in question disliked that rifle because the bevels on the cheekrest interferred with a good right hand grip. All well and good, except those were the original cheekrest installation holes, and there is a short pencil line on the stock to prove it.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I stand corrected. But the percentage of LB to British rifles is barely over 5% of an already limited production, one Canadian rifle in nineteen British guns. Still very scarce and worth pursuing.
This, and the fact that like it or not these days, I am Canadian, is why I insisted on having a matching LB if I was going to have a No 4 (T) at all. The relative rarity and the fact that they were made by Canadian craftsmen and craftswomen's hands makes the LB a must-have.
Does anyone know how many LB sets were sent to England in 1945 with the 90L8### serial range? It is interesting that although they were returned to Canada as surplus after the war, the scopes and Mounting Brackets were kept with their correctly matched rifle. That makes the matching LB sets an even greater (and more valuable) rarity in my view, as most of the British No 4 (T)s that came to North America are mis-matched. Seaforth72 maintains a very accurate and thorough registry/database of known mis-matched No 4 (T) sets worldwide, in an effort to re-match rifles and their wayward Scopes/Mounting Brackets together again. He has even enjoyed some successes bring bits and pieces together with rifles from as far away as Australia and the USA to re-make the matched sets.
Now the quest continues for items of the Complete Equipment Schedule (CES) for the WW2 Sniper and Spotter Team. I have most of what I need if I strip my repro rifle's Transit Chest, the vast majority of it thankfully original so as to go with the LB Set. I just picked up a beautiful (to me, anyways) Scout Regiment Telescope tonite on ebay for $650 delivered in (hopefully) good order from the UK. It comes complete with the Leather Case and Carrying Strap, with all of the stitching in good nick. It is unfortunately British (H.C. Ryland & Son) manufacture rather than Canadian, however the scope itself is in excellent condition with supposedly clear lenses such that I just couldn't pass it by. This, along with the expensive Canadian-manufactured Scope Tripod was the last piece of the CES puzzle for me. Next I just need to spring another $650 on that rather crude little Canadian tripod! As far as the scope goes, I can always upgrade if a nice Canadian piece of glass should come my way....
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maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There are two unknown quantities of rifles that will never be counted. First are the Mk.I* T rifles which were very carefully made up and put in ships for transport. Then were lost at sea to U-boat attacks or mechanical disasters. The second are rifles that made their way through stores to be issued to soldiers and were destroyed or lost due to enemy action on the battlefield. The army that landed in Normandy was replaced 2-3 times over with replacements and battalions rotated into the line. Patrols and detachments operating forward of the line of own troops would attract as much enemy fire as possible if their positions were discovered. How many sniper pairs did not return to friendly lines after their stalks?
Acknowledged, however we know that the last shipment(s) of LB Snipers made it to England, but arrived too late to be issued for use during the fighting. Thus, we have a complete shipment (or shipments) of LB Snipers in the 90L8### range that were shipped back to Canada just as they had arrived in England during the latter stages of the war. These are the minty, unissued LB Snipers that are occasionally still available today, as was the case with the rifle that I just purchased. Somebody must know roughly how many LB Snipers were in those final shipments returned from England. If less than 1500 LB Snipers were manufactured of all models, it stands to reason that the final rifles from the 90L8### series that were returned to Canada were relatively fewer in number.... perhaps just a couple of hundred?
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Bartok5: Given the recent surge in prices paid for these Sniper versions I'm not sure they are currently a good "investment". But, if you buy a set follow the prime collecting rule and go for originality. A re-finished rifle is not a good investment and I'd be nervous about paying a huge amount for something that appears unissued. For a first time "T" owner I would recommend sticking to the British version as their authenticity is reasonably easily verified and you should be able to find a set with matching bracket and scope fairly easily. The quality of the H&H conversions is/was excellent and there are so many more out there. If you do your homework you might even find a bit of a bargain (with potential for actual increase in value). There are some real pieces of junk being sold for as much as $10,000 today- in some cases with the much sought after "minty" appearance.
milsurpo
milsurpo
While I appreciate the caution and recommendation to start out with a lesser purchase, I have zero doubt that in this particular case I am getting exactly what I am paying for. The seller's reputation here and on several Milsurp-specific foruns such as Milsurps.com, is above reproach. That he happens to be good friends with another well-regarded Enfield 4 (T) Subject Matter Expert is simply another feather in this seller's cap. Both his integrigty and the authenticity of the rifle in question are without question. It's legit, dating to its original surplus sale for $66 at a hardware store back in the 1960s and I am entirely comfortable with the transaction and the value for dollar. I do not believe that I am establishing some new previously unscaled height of resale value for a surplussed Long Branch No 4 Mk 1* (T) rifle with Scope Tin and Transit Chest, so there is no reason th think that I am doing the collecting community a disservice with this sale. The rifle itself, comes from a known block of 1945 Long Branch serial numbers that were sent to England and surplussed back to Canada as the war had ended just as they arrived in-country. That is all historical fact of record and the rifle definitely has not been refnished in any way. So, at the end of the day we're all good the deal willl be finalized this afternoon with perssonal delivery scheduled for some time int he next several months. Thanks again for your concern, which I genuinely and sincerely appreciate, but in this case I am comfortable in proceeding.
The scopes should be sent to Warren for examination
and possibly being rebuilt
I did that
I have a BSA that was converted by DCRA to
7.62 for some reason
Everyone has their theories as to why someone
would do it
I bought it as a 303 covered in grease
and possibly being rebuilt
I did that
I have a BSA that was converted by DCRA to
7.62 for some reason
Everyone has their theories as to why someone
would do it
I bought it as a 303 covered in grease
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
The documented total of LB snipers is 1588, the documented number of scope is in the 1520s.
I believe that the discrepancy is due to all of the (documented) doubled scope numbers (Mostly in the MkII series).
Clive Law estimated the total of 90L block rifles to be 375, this number was based on out standing scope contracts turned over to CAL from REL in 1946.
Currently the highest known 90L block rifle serial number is 32x, highest known Mk3 scope is serial is 35x
It is estimated that probably under 100 90L block snipers were retained by Canada - the balance were shipped to the UK.
Thanks very much for those accepted Long Branch production figures. If I am reading correctly, somewhere around 275x 90L8### rifles were shipped to England at the end of the war, but remained unissued due to the end of the fighting. They were apparently returned to Canada as surplus and sold off as such in hardware stores, etc.
According to the master lists retained over at Milsurp.com, my rifle (90L8212) was apparently returned to Canada and sold off, but without its scope. The two were reunited some 75 years after the fact by two enterprising collectors and annotated as such on the list.
The prices on these things are so subjective and variable, how would high and low prices even be measured by? Years ago I know of a guy who paid $800 for one. He badly wanted to complete his No 4 T CES, and it's not like they come up for sale often, even years ago. I have 2 I purchased at different times in the UK, and I paid under $200 CND for them each. But that was over 20 years ago. It is always great when you can score a deal!
20 years ago, that $200 was worth much more than $600 is worth today in terms of sheer buying power. Just saying. Plus, of that $650 cost for the Scope, $100 is shipping from England which isn't cheap for Airmail transport of a fragile optic across the Atlantic. I wanted a Scout Scope NOW so that I can use it for spotting for a buddy shooting my No 4 (T) clone this summer. I paid accordingly and am satisified.
As for the Canadian R.E.L. Tripod, I am certainly all ears if someone can point me in the direction of the correct Tripod for less than the $650 I have seen one selling for. 55Recce? I'm looking at you here, as you are the self-proclaimed bargain finder of our bunch. If you scored a correct R.E.L, 3-draw Scout Telescope in pre-1945 Leather wrapping for less than $600 I'm certainly interested to know your sources for those comparatively inexpensive Canadian optics. If it happened to be a one-off personal deal, then bully for you, but that just means that you were at the right place at the right time to score a deal. Congrats, but one deal doesn't necessarily help set true market value, nor does it help out anyone else in the market for such a scope. Heck, if you know of another Canadian-manufactured Scout Telescope in excellent condition with clear optics for less than $600 I'll buy it with EMT today.
Anyhow, I'm defintely in the market for a substantially cheaper example of the Tripod if anyone happens to know of another available today for less money.... I'll just be waiting over here.....
ETA: I'd hbe quite content with a reasonably-priced reproduction Tripod if someone knows of such an animal, as $650 for an original is pretty crazy $$ for what it actually is....
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Not a "Self proclaimed bargain hunter" just a long time collector who attends local shows. The SR scope I recently bought at the Chiliwack show is a 1942 dated REL, the scope is in good shape and optically clear, the leather work is complete but needs some restitching in places. This does mean I have a spare British scope if anyone is interested...
This also goes to prove that bargains are still to be found if you look hard enough despite a lot of negative comments about gunshow pricing that I have seen lately on this board.
This also goes to prove that bargains are still to be found if you look hard enough despite a lot of negative comments about gunshow pricing that I have seen lately on this board.
So, in other words, after much waiting and looking you found a one-off bargain that needs some work. That is awesome for you, and shows that bargains can still be found, by chance, at gun shows. Cool story, but it does nothing to assist in establishing "fair market value" for such scopes, nor does it assist in any way anyone currently in the market - unless of course they are also willing to wait an indeterminate period for a deal that may or may not ever materialize.
So here's the million dollar question for today - how much is your British Scout Regiment Scope now available for since you scored such a bargain on the Canadian example? Are you going to pass those savings onto a fellow collector looking for his or her similar "deal"? How much do you want for it, right now today?
Meanwhile, I still only know of the single Scout Regt Scope Tripod for sale for $650. If somebody wants one today, that would appear to be the going rate. If anyone knows of one cheaper, I am all ears.....
It is true that some gunshow prices seem way out to lunch but the reasonableness of a price is mostly determined by the collector looking to acquire the specific piece under discussion.
At the Olds gunshow I saw a C1 optic mount top cover listed at $999. To me, that is CRAZY EDDY money, but Bartok could prob shed some light on just how reasonable or not, such a price is, because that kind of item would appeal to him as a collector.
For items that are more commonly found at gunshows, it makes sense to wait and shop around. As an example there are numerous people asking $1.50 to $2 a for once fired 303 British brass. Yet I picked up a big box of brass for $0.43 a round. I've been watching listings and jumped on one I knew was a good deal.
What you say makes sense. In the case of the Scout Regiment Telescope Tripod, there were an estimated 500 produced by R.E.L. to go along with the (you guessed it) 500 Telescopes manufactured. That's it, that's all, and many of those 500 Tripods that survived the war migrated to England post-war for use by shooting clubs with surplussed Sniper 20x Telescopes. So, the Tripod currently being offered in Excellent condition on eBay for $650 is actually quite rare to find today, with far more Telescopes for sale (including British) than there are Tripods. A search of past and upcoming auctions gives no indication of any recently sold, nor any forthcoming. A WTB on Milsurps.com has not attracted any excess Tripod offers, either. So it would appear that the example on ebay is the only show in town, both now and for the foreseeable future. Based on that reasoning, I shot the Seller a "hail-Mary" offer of $550 which he graciously accepted just now, much to my surprise. If I have done the collecting world a disservice by raising the bar on the selling price of R.E.L. Tripods, I apologize but saw no alternative with 13 other folks watching the item and a tempting "buy it now" price...
For routine items that appear at every gun show? It makes perfect sense to wait for a deal. In the case of the R.E.L. Tripod however, I didnt see any deals forthcoming. So I struck while the iron was hot!
As regards that C1 Sniper Scope Body Cover Mount for $999? It all depends on how invested you are in a partial Sniper set, combined with how determined you are to have it. If say, you purchased a complete scope (less mount) for $1K it might make fiscal sense to complete the set for another $999. Or, it might not. Depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is the depth of your pockets for such non-life necessities. I paid $1.7K for my complete C1 Sniper Scope and Can set about 2 year ago. Since that time I have seen prices fluctuate from a high above $2K to a low of $1200 (another gun show bargain) for the complete kits. Those body cover mounts are like hen's teeth these days, so their value is steadily climbing....
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