Why do Canadian guided hunts costs so damn much compared to international hunts?

Callee said:
My question would be: how busy are these guides?

If they are booked right up, then the answer to your question would be "because that's what the market supports."

And if the market does support such high prices, my guess would be it's largely due to american hunters who see the dollar exchange as a discount.
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Another factor in pricing is the appearance of quality. If everyone is charging $20k for a hunt and you try to offer it for $15k then you run a very real risk of people assuming the 20k guy is the better hunt. This very thing came up on an episode of the Meateater podcast with a moose guide in Alaska, he actually wanted to charge less but then he gets fewer bookings.
 
Northern Shooter said:
So what gives? is it the cost of labour here compared to places like South Africa and parts of Europe? Is it the degree of remoteness in terms of getting access to these animals (fly in, fuel, horseback etc). .
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cost of operating combined with the cost of living has a lot to do with it
add in the demand by foreign owners for a high return on investment and Cdn hunt prices go up

Don't just go by the advertised prices though, a few g/o's will sell to Cdn residents for a dollar at par

I don't think there is any monopoly on any of the Cdn hunts but there may well be collusion on pricing, the g/o assoc are a pretty tight knit group
there operating costs go way beyond what is actually spent on the ground, there is the whole game of contibuting, donating, trading, advertising, sales as well as maybe some conservation efforts though many of those could be called self-serving

not even apples-to-oranges when compared to Africa
 
Because they don’t target the majority, they target the 1%, the people that have money and that increase of cost of living doesn’t affect them! 340,000,000 people in the US, 1% is a lot of them with a lot of money!!
Also hunting in Europe or Africa is not as it use to be, lots of friction between hunters and the general public! So to attract paille they need to drop the prices!
I would love to do an elk or a speed goat hunt but prices are out of my league!
 
TheCoachZed said:
But what burns me up is that in Canada, I cannot as a Canadian easily freelance hunt other provinces. Down in the US, over-the-counter tags make it easy to jump between states. It is way way way harder to do so in Canada. Not impossible, but harder. It makes no sense that I can jump in an airplane and freelance hunt Utah for elk, on the other side of the continent with a limited population, for well under half the cost of a caribou hunt in Newfoundland.
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This is my problem. I hunt and apply in many US states and even though the odds to draw certain species are slim, I still have chances to draw. I pay Federal taxes which go towards Canadian transfer programs to the "have not" Territories and still can't hunt any of the territories without a guide/outfitter. At least BC and AB have hunter host programs to get around hunting with a guide/outfitter and other Provinces allow Canadian non-residents to hunt certain species on your own. I find it absolutely ridiculous that the Territories maintain this resource completely for themselves/guides/outfitters and sell out their wildlife to the richest.

I absolutely despise guide/outfitter handouts and monopolies.
 
When in doubt, blame Trudeau. Haha. My guess is a lack of competition, or vendors unwilling to undercut their competitors. Which is the same thing I guess.
 
This one has a straightforward answer, that is challenging to wrap one’s head around and tad lengthy to properly illustrate. Here’s the Cole’s notes.

I can only speak for BC, but the Yukon operates similarly. I outfitted the BC North Coast for both species of bears, moose, and lots of mountain goats. I had a loan secured against my home to make it happen including all my savings on top. To get a workable guide territory where I’m from, you’re looking at $600,000-several million. There are smaller hobby territories with minimal quota, but they’re not viable as a business generally due to small quota which equates to the ability to earn and pay it off. Very few of us here have that much money in cash, which means involving the bank and leveraging your home generally as banks don’t accept territory certificates as collateral.

Then you’ll need a staff, even if it’s just one guide and one helper, who need to make a living and provide for their families. That means you’re paying them whether you’re making money or not, and the first two years, you better plan on not which means you’re floating your own family, and at least one other at minimum. If you don’t take care of them, you lose them quick right when you need them as the guiding industry is so transient. That’s no slag on the guides, they go where the money is. Then, consider your quotas are finite. What you sell for hunts comes out of your ability to earn and pay your bills in the future, using or selling them cheap is dangerous. Then right when you’re feeling comfortable, the government can cut your quota with no notice saying sorry, what you already used was enough.

Then as your operation grows, so do your expenses. If you don’t own the aircraft and boats, plan to spend well into six figures a year on charters. A round trip to my territory cost $2500-3500, I could fly to Africa for what it costs to take a floatplane or jet boat to my camp. If you do own your own aircraft and boats (or horses) you spend the same just by a different path, you know what they say about boats let alone aircraft or horse ownership. On top of your territory payments, equipment maintenance and insurance, your staff salaries, your liability insurance, trade shows and advertising…

My head guide once said to me must be nice to be billing that for a goat hunt eh? I said hey, if I have you guide it for me, you make more on it than I do. He said “What?” and I was dead serious. The fellow I bought from told me there was $5000 in profit in a goat hunt all said and done when looked at, at year end. That margin proved accurate if I guided it myself. In the end, I averaged a hair more income than my day job which I left behind to guide, and worked about twice as much and was far more financially exposed. This is not a sob story, I’d do it again with some changes, it was a hell of a life.

But just keep in mind, if you are in the segment of the population that can pay for hunts, you’re generally wealthier than your outfitter and by good margin. It’s not a business you enter for the salary, it’s for the love of it. As to why Africa is cheaper, you’re looking at and comparing wild hunts on giant territories (ours was 5,300 square Kms, or 1.3 million acres) to stocked hunting themed game farms. Try comparing to wild Tanzania, Namibia’s Caprivi, open Zambezi Zim or bongo in the CAR… you’ll find the same prices. It isn’t cheap to operate truly remote, even with far cheaper African leases and staff.

Hopefully that makes some sense of the numbers you’re seeing, you’re annual income as a Rigby buyer likely outstrips that of all the guide outfitters you’re shopping except perhaps the family dynasty thinhorn sheep territory holders. None of us could buy one of their territories, one was recently for sale for around $8 million if memory serves.

Good hunting.
 
Pretty similar industries really I grew up farming, cost of entry barriers, and quota / board arrangements. It’s workable, we made our living and the guides, but the prices end up being the prices as a result of the process.

The only real alternative would be abolishing the tenure system, but then it ends up effectively being the same thing and still expensive. That’s a simple supply and demand problem, the supply of good hunting ground and trophy animals is finite.
 
Speaking of the Tenure System, every other Tenure in BC is "Use it or Lose it" how do anti-Hunting groups get away with buying and sitting on Tenures? A fundamental point of Govt is that everyone is supposed to be treated them same (yes, I know that is illusory).
 
Harvest success isn’t part of the equation with the government, and royalties were so small they’re inconsequential to the gov. They ultimately weigh it by the money entering the province’s economy from outside, and they want to see that from use of the lease. Long as clients and guide reports are coming in, they don’t care if it’s shooting photos or rifles. It was expressed the government would actually prefer if outfitters diversified to offering more experiences and fewer kills.

Same as an heli ski tenure, they don’t care if the clients skied or just drank in the lodge, only that they payed and came to spend their money in BC. Outfitters too can bat zero for five years and keep their territories, long as they’re bringing outside money into the provincial economy. Though it would be disastrous for business.
 
Ardent said:
This one has a straightforward answer, that is challenging to wrap one’s head around and tad lengthy to properly illustrate. Here’s the Cole’s notes.

I can only speak for BC, but the Yukon operates similarly. I outfitted the BC North Coast for both species of bears, moose, and lots of mountain goats. I had a loan secured against my home to make it happen including all my savings on top. To get a workable guide territory where I’m from, you’re looking at $600,000-several million. There are smaller hobby territories with minimal quota, but they’re not viable as a business generally due to small quota which equates to the ability to earn and pay it off. Very few of us here have that much money in cash, which means involving the bank and leveraging your home generally as banks don’t accept territory certificates as collateral.

Then you’ll need a staff, even if it’s just one guide and one helper, who need to make a living and provide for their families. That means you’re paying them whether you’re making money or not, and the first two years, you better plan on not which means you’re floating your own family, and at least one other at minimum. If you don’t take care of them, you lose them quick right when you need them as the guiding industry is so transient. That’s no slag on the guides, they go where the money is. Then, consider your quotas are finite. What you sell for hunts comes out of your ability to earn and pay your bills in the future, using or selling them cheap is dangerous. Then right when you’re feeling comfortable, the government can cut your quota with no notice saying sorry, what you already used was enough.

Then as your operation grows, so do your expenses. If you don’t own the aircraft and boats, plan to spend well into six figures a year on charters. A round trip to my territory cost $2500-3500, I could fly to Africa for what it costs to take a floatplane or jet boat to my camp. If you do own your own aircraft and boats (or horses) you spend the same just by a different path, you know what they say about boats let alone aircraft or horse ownership. On top of your territory payments, equipment maintenance and insurance, your staff salaries, your liability insurance, trade shows and advertising…

My head guide once said to me must be nice to be billing that for a goat hunt eh? I said hey, if I have you guide it for me, you make more on it than I do. He said “What?” and I was dead serious. The fellow I bought from told me there was $5000 in profit in a goat hunt all said and done when looked at, at year end. That margin proved accurate if I guided it myself. In the end, I averaged a hair more income than my day job which I left behind to guide, and worked about twice as much and was far more financially exposed. This is not a sob story, I’d do it again with some changes, it was a hell of a life.

But just keep in mind, if you are in the segment of the population that can pay for hunts, you’re generally wealthier than your outfitter and by good margin. It’s not a business you enter for the salary, it’s for the love of it. As to why Africa is cheaper, you’re looking at and comparing wild hunts on giant territories (ours was 5,300 square Kms, or 1.3 million acres) to stocked hunting themed game farms. Try comparing to wild Tanzania, Namibia’s Caprivi, open Zambezi Zim or bongo in the CAR… you’ll find the same prices. It isn’t cheap to operate truly remote, even with far cheaper African leases and staff.

Hopefully that makes some sense of the numbers you’re seeing, you’re annual income as a Rigby buyer likely outstrips that of all the guide outfitters you’re shopping except perhaps the family dynasty thinhorn sheep territory holders. None of us could buy one of their territories, one was recently for sale for around $8 million if memory serves.

Good hunting.
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Thanks for the write-up Ardent, that inside perspective helps explain some of these costs that I'm seeing. Have they increased significantly since you last guided?

In terms of the Rigby; I ended up cancelling the order. That was an impulse purchase the result of a better than expected bonus and one too many drinks. If I would have went through with it that would have cost me $24,000 and change.

Instead, I ended up paying off the remainder of my truck, buying two more sensible rifles (Model 70 458 and Ruger M77 338) with some left over to spend on this upcoming guided hunt.

I do OK for myself but I'm by no means the Rigby demographic.
 
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I finished in 2021, can’t imagine it’s gotten cheaper.

I can respect that, probably will bring more enjoyment, a rifle’s a rifle long as it’s decent enough you don’t mind being seen in public with it. I dabbled in the extravagant as investments I could play with, but kept the production Winchesters.
 
Ardent were you the one setting prices? If so, how much influence did other peoples prices have on what you did? Was it a serious consideration, or was it more that everyone ended up with similar prices because they had similar expenses?
 
Well in Canada those species you list in your first post, the indians just slaughter them year after year so that alone drives the price up for these hunts. Outfitters get more tags than residents do and indians have a free for all. No one wants to say it but it's been said.
 
Desjard said:
Well in Canada those species you list in your first post, the indians just slaughter them year after year so that alone drives the price up for these hunts. Outfitters get more tags than residents do and indians have a free for all. No one wants to say it but it's been said.
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No one wants to say it. Yeah, right. Never seen anything negative said about natives on CGN... Nope... I'm surprised you didn't call 'em stewards of the land in quotations...
 
Suther said:
Ardent were you the one setting prices? If so, how much influence did other peoples prices have on what you did? Was it a serious consideration, or was it more that everyone ended up with similar prices because they had similar expenses?
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I set the prices, in the end it cost what it cost to operate, and I followed the standard model to start then adjusted it to ensure I could make a living for us based on our factors (quota, access costs, territory payments, staff salary). There was certainly never any fretting we were charging too much or would be awash in cash, the hard thinking was always concerned about ending up short. To summarize, we followed the model then adapted it to fit. It’s a competitive industry at the end of the day, like any business.
 
Ardent said:
Harvest success isn’t part of the equation with the government, and royalties were so small they’re inconsequential to the gov. They ultimately weigh it by the money entering the province’s economy from outside, and they want to see that from use of the lease. Long as clients and guide reports are coming in, they don’t care if it’s shooting photos or rifles. It was expressed the government would actually prefer if outfitters diversified to offering more experiences and fewer kills.

Same as an heli ski tenure, they don’t care if the clients skied or just drank in the lodge, only that they payed and came to spend their money in BC. Outfitters too can bat zero for five years and keep their territories, long as they’re bringing outside money into the provincial economy. Though it would be disastrous for business.
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Try that with any other Tenure; Grazing, Water, Christmas Tree, etc? 3 years and you're gone.

You'll get laughed right out of their office if you claim your selling photos of trees while they cancel your permit. And Christmas Tree Stumpage is small as well.
 
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