Neck turning Alpha brass in 6mm GT

[acrashb]

Seems the top shooters have a similar loading process to maintain the accuracy they need to get on the podium of some very tough competition
[...]
Maybe they are all just lucky.. who knows, but you gotta think, that is a pretty good sample size

1) I believe the top precision (benchrest, f-class) shooters turn necks, at least they used to in benchrest. Part of that - in benchrest anyway, about which I know a little bit - is to accommodate custom tight-neck chambers, the rest would be all the usual thoughts about the benefits of uniformity. Since you're enmeshed in the world of precision, what are most currently doing? Skimming? full turning? Just laugh, collet size, load, and shoot?

2) sometimes it's not what people do, it's how well they do it. In other words, we could just be looking at a lot of people who are just really good at shooting (including, ie., judging wind), such that their prep / processing practices might be less important than how well they shoot. Hence my quest for tests - after all, what gets done can and does evolve even in mature sports. But I certainly get your point, hence my question in 1) Sometimes, in lieu of good data, just follow the herd (which is a form of good data).

2b) I really like the idea of a collet die, although it would add an extra processing step (after a shoulder bump). But getting the custom die would be on critical path and push my project back by about six weeks, so I may try it later in the year.

 

[Mystic Precision]

As YoDave said, if you want to compete at the highest level, you leave nothing to chance. If the game you play is sub min of really large target, do whatever floats your boat. If the goal is to podium in a game where shooters can shoot SUB 1/2 MOA at 1000yds over a 20rds relay, you can decide what steps you want to cut... the rest of us are doing what we can to get rid of any possible error.

And that extends to bullets, optics, stocks, rests - whether pedestal or bipod, and bags. Of course, there is the barrel and all the options to investigate.

This is anecdotal... but I have never heard a top ranking F class shooter complain about an extra step in ammo and rifle prep. Often, they are comparing notes to see if they can make each step just a little bit better.... and are willing to spend buckets of money for incremental gains.

I have however, heard many shooters that place far lower in the standings wonder if all this work is worth it.

The best way to know if your system is truly accurate is to just shoot it at paper very far away. Go to a local F class match and give it a go. Every shot is marked (most run electronic targets so you can even store the data), velocities AT target are usually listed too.... very easy to see how your set up actually shoots at distance... and then you can compare to those who shoot F class seriously

Looking at how the shots land vs the conditions is very enlightening....

YMMV

Jerry

PS... the body sizing is the first step in the processing...tumbling to get rid of the lube... then neck sizing with the collet neck die.... etc

 

[kthomas]

As YoDave said, if you want to compete at the highest level, you leave nothing to chance. If the game you play is sub min of really large target, do whatever floats your boat. If the goal is to podium in a game where shooters can shoot SUB 1/2 MOA at 1000yds over a 20rds relay, you can decide what steps you want to cut... the rest of us are doing what we can to get rid of any possible error.

And that extends to bullets, optics, stocks, rests - whether pedestal or bipod, and bags. Of course, there is the barrel and all the options to investigate.

This is anecdotal... but I have never heard a top ranking F class shooter complain about an extra step in ammo and rifle prep. Often, they are comparing notes to see if they can make each step just a little bit better.... and are willing to spend buckets of money for incremental gains.

I have however, heard many shooters that place far lower in the standings wonder if all this work is worth it.

The best way to know if your system is truly accurate is to just shoot it at paper very far away. Go to a local F class match and give it a go. Every shot is marked (most run electronic targets so you can even store the data), velocities AT target are usually listed too.... very easy to see how your set up actually shoots at distance... and then you can compare to those who shoot F class seriously

Looking at how the shots land vs the conditions is very enlightening....

Jerry

YMMV

Jerry

PS... the body sizing is the first step in the processing...tumbling to get rid of the lube... then neck sizing with the collet neck die.... etc

They also have tight neck chambers, which doesn't appear to be the case for the OP.

Just because people do it, doesn't mean it works.

 

[yodave]

They also have tight neck chambers, which doesn't appear to be the case for the OP.

Just because people do it, doesn't mean it works.

I turn for SAAMI spec chambers, it's not about the chamber or the rifle, it's about the quality of the brass and how 95% of them are egg shaped and always have 1 side thicker then the other, in the neck, and in the body, but seeing the neck holds the bullet, why wouldn't you want that to be as concentric as you can make it? you don't have to mount your scope level, you can dial in the windage as you shoot longer distances if your crosshair is canted, rifle will still shoot the same, but it's one less thing to think about if you can take as much error out of the equation as you can.......

does neck turning produce better results on paper? does sorting your bullets? who cares, when you don't get the results you're chasing, you can rule those two things out, because they are known......

 

[kthomas]

I turn for SAAMI spec chambers, it's not about the chamber or the rifle, it's about the quality of the brass and how 95% of them are egg shaped and always have 1 side thicker then the other, in the neck, and in the body, but seeing the neck holds the bullet, why wouldn't you want that to be as concentric as you can make it? you don't have to mount your scope level, you can dial in the windage as you shoot longer distances if your crosshair is canted, rifle will still shoot the same, but it's one less thing to think about if you can take as much error out of the equation as you can.......

does neck turning produce better results on paper? does sorting your bullets? who cares, when you don't get the results you're chasing, you can rule those two things out, because they are known......

I don't think neck turning hurts. But I'm very skeptical that it provides any benefit beyond the most marginal amount.

If you start with high quality brass, like Lapua or Alpha, I'm not convinced at all that the extra step provides any meaningful benefit. I've yet to see any quality evidence to suggest so.

I get it, for a lot of people this game is mental. You want to reduce any perceived factors that could negatively impact your precision. Having that mental headspace of confidence is important - and if that means that you need to neck turn, then neck turn.

There's a lot of myth and lore to reloading, especially amongst the BR and F-Class crowd. But if that translates into more confidence in your system, by all means. It certainly isn't going to hurt anything.

 

[Mystic Precision]

That is how much you understand about F class... your OPINION used as fact.

We stopped using tight chambers in F class years ago... in fact, most will use quite a bit of clearance in the neck area... and still outside neck turning is SOP.

If you want to talk about F class, better start shooting and competing in it.... BR for that matter too.

Stop talking, feeling, believing, hoping about things you have zero experience in. Targets don't lie so if you have an opinion go ahead and test it.... you can see it in real time, take the target home and review all the data. You are going to love all the AT TARGET velocity data you can collect.

Maybe you will offer a new process where your 'opinions' can teach us all a thing or two.

Jerry

 

[acrashb]

I have never heard a top ranking F class shooter complain about an extra step in ammo and rifle prep. Often, they are comparing notes to see if they can make each step just a little bit better.... and are willing to spend buckets of money for incremental gains.

Thanks Jerry, helpful as always.

 

[kthomas]

That is how much you understand about F class... your OPINION used as fact.

We stopped using tight chambers in F class years ago... in fact, most will use quite a bit of clearance in the neck area... and still outside neck turning is SOP.

If you want to talk about F class, better start shooting and competing in it.... BR for that matter too.

Stop talking, feeling, believing, hoping about things you have zero experience in. Targets don't lie so if you have an opinion go ahead and test it.... you can see it in real time, take the target home and review all the data. You are going to love all the AT TARGET velocity data you can collect.

Maybe you will offer a new process where your 'opinions' can teach us all a thing or two.

Jerry

I'm not telling you or others what to do. Go ahead and neck turn your brass. What you do to your brass is completely inconsequential to me. And there are definitely shooters in F-Class still using tight neck chambers. Some have even posted as much in this very thread. Keith Glasscock, a very popular F-Class shooter with an online presence, is using a tight neck chamber for example.

I'm not interested in poor quality anecdotal observations. But I'm very open to any rigorous tests that show a quantifiable and demonstrable difference in performance with neck turning versus not neck turning. To my knowledge, there is none.

Again, just because a group of individuals perform a step for a perceived benefit, doesn't mean that benefit exists (or in the quantity assumed).

 

[yodave]

I'm not telling you or others what to do. Go ahead and neck turn your brass. What you do to your brass is completely inconsequential to me. And there are definitely shooters in F-Class still using tight neck chambers. Some have even posted as much in this very thread. Keith Glasscock, a very popular F-Class shooter with an online presence, is using a tight neck chamber for example.

I'm not interested in poor quality anecdotal observations. But I'm very open to any rigorous tests that show a quantifiable and demonstrable difference in performance with neck turning versus not neck turning. To my knowledge, there is none.

Again, just because a group of individuals perform a step for a perceived benefit, doesn't mean that benefit exists (or in the quantity assumed).

send me 5 pieces of brass so I can match tune them for you and you can go shoot them against your out of the box rifles, we all want to know if either of you or your rifle is up to the quest of seeing the difference in the two cases when fired in your rifle, by no other then you......maybe then, you can form some facts rather then rambling about what you read on the internet, written by guys that don't shoot much, but research to no end, possibly the same crowd that is wrapped up with single digit ES/SD that have yet to put a group on paper....

 

[kthomas]

send me 5 pieces of brass so I can match tune them for you and you can go shoot them against your out of the box rifles, we all want to know if either of you or your rifle is up to the quest of seeing the difference in the two cases when fired in your rifle, by no other then you......maybe then, you can form some facts rather then rambling about what you read on the internet, written by guys that don't shoot much, but research to no end, possibly the same crowd that is wrapped up with single digit ES/SD that have yet to put a group on paper....

I don't understand the hostility.

Can you point me to any rigorous testing that demonstrates and quantifies the performance benefits of neck turning? Or is it all anecdotal observations?

 

[yodave]

I don't understand the hostility.

Can you point me to any rigorous testing that demonstrates and quantifies the performance benefits of neck turning? Or is it all anecdotal observations?

I've shrunk groups and eliminated fliers in my rifles, any time you want to drop in and study the targets, even shoot the rifles I'll free my schedule and accommodate ya, heck we'll even try it in your rifles and study the targets, and I shoot tight necks, customs chambers, and factory rifles, haven't seen one yet that didn't benefit from brass prep and taking the extra steps to remove variables

 

[kthomas]

I've shrunk groups and eliminated fliers in my rifles, any time you want to drop in and study the targets, even shoot the rifles I'll free my schedule and accommodate ya, heck we'll even try it in your rifles and study the targets, and I shoot tight necks, customs chambers, and factory rifles, haven't seen one yet that didn't benefit from brass prep and taking the extra steps to remove variables

Appreciate the offer

And if you're ever in Tucson, you're free to check out my targets and shoot my no neck turn 6BRA

 

[Mystic Precision]

send me 5 pieces of brass so I can match tune them for you and you can go shoot them against your out of the box rifles, we all want to know if either of you or your rifle is up to the quest of seeing the difference in the two cases when fired in your rifle, by no other then you......maybe then, you can form some facts rather then rambling about what you read on the internet, written by guys that don't shoot much, but research to no end, possibly the same crowd that is wrapped up with single digit ES/SD that have yet to put a group on paper....

Ah yes, the almighty "test"... but then the test isn't done right.. or done on the wrong day... or the wrong phase of the moon.

and it goes on. Just leave him be. He has been egging this on for years. Got banned how many times now? And just comes back for more. (how's that work anyways?)

Funny, they never seem to want to go to an F class match, shoot on target to prove their point. But happy to talk trash about what they have no experience with.

There is so much more to neck turning then just shaving off a little brass... but then we have more things to prove ... in ways that will never be acceptable.

Tight chambers... that makes me smile.

Its all good... they can load anyway they feel satisfactory. Their level of accuracy is entirely up to them...

If they ever shot on paper at distance and counted ALL their shots, maybe some of their opinions would change... or maybe, there will be another set of excuses to use????



Jerry

 

[kthomas]

Ah yes, the almighty "test"... but then the test isn't done right.. or done on the wrong day... or the wrong phase of the moon.

and it goes on. Just leave him be. He has been egging this on for years. Got banned how many times now? And just comes back for more. (how's that work anyways?)

Funny, they never seem to want to go to an F class match, shoot on target to prove their point. But happy to talk trash about what they have no experience with.

There is so much more to neck turning then just shaving off a little brass... but then we have more things to prove ... in ways that will never be acceptable.

Tight chambers... that makes me smile.

Its all good... they can load anyway they feel satisfactory. Their level of accuracy is entirely up to them...

If they ever shot on paper at distance and counted ALL their shots, maybe some of their opinions would change... or maybe, there will be another set of excuses to use????



Jerry

If you have to resort to insults, you probably don't have as strong of an argument as you think you do

Since asking for any evidence beyond anecdotal couldn't bear any fruit, I'll politely go back to the shadows in this thread. I'm interested in data, not insults.

 

[SteveB]

As much as I have disagreed with KThomas over the years, I do have to agree with him on this part although I know he is just stirring the pot. I also believe that YoDave and Kt are actually agreeing on the same point that neck turning is more in the eye of the beholder than tangible benefit depending on the level of accuracy required from your sport.
AcrashB you are correct that you need to neck turn because you are “making” a new caliber case from another case and you need to remanufacture the case to correctly fit for safety reasons among other things. I also have heard of “tests” being done but I haven’t read many in print. For example, in Mission, B.C. a benchrester (champion level) tested the amount of neck side clearance in his rifles. He found the more side clearance he put into his rifle chamber the tighter the accuracy became so he shoots large side clearance chambers and wins. Never published but locally known and accepted.
Benchrest is the most demanding of absolute accuracy, F-Class is next and finally a long, long way down the accuracy requirements is the PRS game although some shooters are beginning to understand. Benchrest fires very few rounds in a match and the barrel is cleaned very often so the rounds and chambers mostly are shot very clean. I haven't shot benchrest but I understand the groups under the 1's are required to win. Barrels are also considered "shot-out" after a few hundred rounds.
F-Class matches, on the other hand, are probably more demanding on equipment and ammunition than any shooting sport because matches are long strings of 25 rounds+, the barrels come off the line extremely hot and dirty, multiple long string matches are shot each day and ammunition can be extremely high pressure to chase a node. Yet we demand them to maintain very tight groups through it all and a long barrel life. Winning accuracy standards for rifles is .25 to .3 MOA out to 900 meters/1000 yards else the barrel should be pulled. Barrel life over 2000 rounds for 284’s and 1200 rounds for magnums is about normal.
PRS, on the other hand, have very loose accuracy requirements/standards from my experience and most PRS shooters aren't that skilled in long range shooting at least from my experience being around them. They seem more concerned about buying and wearing high priced gear than shooting accurately. Why worry about neck-turning when you can shoot factory ammo and win.
This leads to the augments like I see above. Benchresters see value in tight chambers and precision fitted components and possible they are right in their game where they only use 5 to 10 cases ever, clean their barrels after a few rounds and reload at the range. I shoot F-Class and take 800 rounds of ammo to a big match. I have also found that tight neck diameter chambers with small neck clearances cause real issues like pressure excursions, blown primers and flyers as the fouling builds up so that now I run large diameter no-turn necks with large side clearances. I also see no need, from my experience, to neck turn, and remember my standard for accuracy is .25 moa at 900 meters after a 25 round string with a smoking hot barrel. I have found that other reloading procedures are more important.
I believe that the game you shoot drives your understanding of requirements so it is counter-productive to ague which is the "better" procedure, turn or no-turn.
From a PRS shooters perspective shooting in a SAAMI chamber at huge targets, why bother.
From an F-Class shooter if you believe it does help then you will. More and more of the guys I know have quit turning because other things help better and not turning saves time in producing large amounts of ammunition.
From a benchrester with a tight chamber so standard brass brass won’t fit then you must.
To argue among yourselves that neck turning is a must and written in stone is fruitless.

 

[jimbo14]

^^^ great post.

 

[peterdobson]

For a business that deals with many competitors in all shooting discipline, we vote for SteveB's post.

Regards,

Peter

 

[remington jim]

Excellent READ there Steve - Thanks for that ! I have learned a bunch from you . RJ

 

[acrashb]

AcrashB you are correct that you need to neck turn because you are “making” a new caliber case from another case and you need to remanufacture the case to correctly fit for safety reasons among other things.

Not sure where I gave that impression. I'm using Alpha 6mm GT brass, and am considering turning because the neck thickness is tapered - thicker near the shoulder and thinner near the mouth. I might have considered skim turning as a matter of course, but the tapered thickness caught me by surprise so I thought of doing more than a skim.

Your overall point about precision measures being driven by a given sport is well taken. PRS shooters don't need the same level of accuracy as short-distance Benchresters, as you say.

My overall thing is, taking away the large number of people who may do a thing (following the crowd), what benefit, if any, does turning provide? As yet, no-one here or on other fora has turned up any double-blind, statistically valid tests. I've reached out to Bryan Litz to suggest doing this in the next volume of his Modern Advancements In Long Range Shooting series.

I'll probably end up splitting the baby by turning to .0135, which will go a long way to uniforming the necks without taking tons of brass off. Don't know for sure what if anything it will achieve on the targets or the steels (at least one top PRS shooter doesn't turn Alpha brass), but it will make me feel better and following the (many F-Class, most Benchrest) crowd can't hurt precision. And I enjoy neck turning, so it isn't a burden.

Looks like Hirsch may be getting some Lapua 6mm GT brass in 2025 - thanks @peterdobson , I hope you sell massive quantities. I'll pick up a bunch and see if the neck thickness tapers like Alpha or is more uniform, but until then it's Alpha brass from Bighorn Sales.

 

[Lead hammer]

Do we even know if the taper is a problem even? Is it just the outside?
A person can add steps to reloading to check for improvements or you can take away steps to see if you don’t need the extra steps. It’s just hard to run through all the variables, time and money are problems for most. Im trying to switch to Lapua, no turn, in my 6.5 factory barrel. Hopefully it warms up soon to see how it goes.