I call BS. Good luck finding cheap ammo, gas, hunting licenses, etc. The cheap rifle and scope will be his least expense, he better have alot more money if he wants to play cat and mouse with big game. A person will be much further ahead purchasing an older Remington, Winchester, Sako, Ruger.
Mossberg PATRIOT Disaster
- Thread starter saskdude99
- Start date
I call BS. Good luck finding cheap ammo, gas, hunting licenses, etc. The cheap rifle and scope will be his least expense, he better have alot more money if he wants to play cat and mouse with big game. A person will be much further ahead purchasing an older Remington, Winchester, Sako, Ruger.
You can call BS all you want, but I've lived it. All of those other costs add up. Sure, the rifle is only part of the equation, but if I have $1000 I can buy a $500 rifle and still afford some ammo, gas, a license, etc. If I pay $1000 for the rifle, thats it. My budget is done. I can't afford ammo, or a hunting license, or gas to get there. My Axis was $235, far cheaper than any used Remington or Winchester. Is a used Remington or Winchester a better rifle? Sure. They don't shoot any better or make game any deader, but the Axis certainly has its downsides and I do consider my Rem700 to be a better gun.
Now, the prices on these budget rifles have gone up a lot since I bought my Axis, which makes the economics of them less favorable when comparing to the used market, especially with the large quantity of mauser sporters available from places like Intersurplus, but a lot of people, especially people new to the world of guns and hunting, are leary about buying a used rifle - I know I was at the time.
Last edited:
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Shoot it and see. I had some pitted barrels that still would do 1 moa.
It is definitely a delicate balance to strike. I like golf illustrations so here's an excuse to use another one. I am sure some parallels can be drawn here. But of course reality is a bit more complex than this.
With a limited budget as the primary constraint, what to do... Years ago I had some colleagues want to get into golf, since we had tons of corporate tournaments. Both of them had around the same amount they are looking to spend. Both were relative beginners.
They asked a number of us for advice and you can imagine, it ran the gamut.
Some people said, get the cheapest clubs you can get, and save the rest for balls, gear, lessons, green fees, golf cart, etc. Other people said to get a decent set so you won't be put off when the experience from using cheaper stuff eventually rears its head.
All I can say is that years later, all things considered (and many more factors at play), the guy who bought the decent set but sacrificed on accessories, continued to play golf. The guy with the cheapie walmart set gave up as no matter how much he went out, he didn't find his performance warranted his continuing involvement. Now I realize there are more factors here like time, natural talent/interest, mindset, etc.
But I have seen this with guns too. Someone with a limited budget buying something half decent - they were not beset with quality problems (or at least fewer of them) and enjoyed their firearm - first impressions are important. Now, I get it - what good is having a decent gun but no ammo to shoot. I'd suggest if funds were tight (and with me that's always the case with putting kids through university and such), maybe the type of gun should be considered so that one can get sufficient ammo. I am not one to suggest to anyone how to spend their money, BUT I am working with a colleague who just got his PAL, him and his GF just had baby but he wants to get out shooting. He told me just budget and wants to get a PCC. I told him yes, PCCs are fun but for what he wanted that is hitting his budget and that doesn't even include and optic and ammo. I suggested to him perhaps consider something else. If he wants a semi auto, maybe something like a .22 GSG. Or to learn the fundamentals of shooting why not get a bolt action .22, something decent value-priced like an Athlon scope and then you'll have enough for some ammo - doesn't have to be Lapua...could be something like Blazer, CCI Standard, whatever... but again that was just my suggestion, based on what he told me his requirements were.
That said, I do agree with Track in that the full cost of ownership should be considered. Otherwise it's not unlike the person who gets the maximum mortgage to get a place only to have no money to furnish it or pay for upkeep/repairs, etc. I think anyone coming into firearms ownership has to count the cost coming in, and we're not just talking financially here, but for this conversation, it's a definite factor. Just like golf, it's not just the clubs, balls, and bag. Lots of other extraneous and affiliated costs to consider.
As for buying used on a first purchase for a new gun owner - I am sure this is also not a popular opinion, but I'd suggest people get something new. It's not like buying a used car that you can always get some mechanic to fix it. If it's a new shooter and they don't have connections to others who can fix things...best have that first impression be as problem-free as possible (and yes I am aware new gun doesn't necessarily mean problem free, as the Patriot here shows).
Very similar to Terry Pratchett's boots theory of economic injustice. Applies very well to hunting boots as I'm sure you know! Not so great for guns though, because even cheap guns generally last many years and more often than not get replaced out of want, not necessity.
I always try to buy the best I can afford, usually end up spending more than that. But if only spending say $300 or $400 on a new rifle you can’t expect to have top quality fit and finish, match trigger or accuracy. Sometimes certain products do come along that punch well above their price point and are a great value but that tends to be more the exception than the rule. I have a bigger problem with spending good money and still getting a piece of crap. German cars are a good example of this. Driving a Porsche, BMW etc. is awesome BUT my experience with German engineering is they tend to build things far more complicated than they need to be and that compromises reliability and serviceability. Anyone who has worked on them know what I am talking about. A Toyota Camry is NOT as exciting to drive around as a GT3 RS but the Camry will provide years of trouble free daily commuting for the most part with minimal maintenance or repair costs.
Suther in the time you bought a 235 axis how many fast food meals, 6 packs and joints did you buy?
I used to be poor too, most did. How many 200 dollar budget shotguns do you own again?
If I could redo my gun buying I would go from many midrange guns to a handful of high quality ones a lot sooner.
When I go to the range my guns are sometimes worth more than the car that drives them.
I've had some of the same outdoor gear for almost a decade, I cringed when I bought it, but I used to replace my rain pants yearly and shiver in a north face jacket when it rained.
I understand not everyone can afford expensive stuff and that it's "expensive to be poor" but for urbanites hunting is ultimately a luxury. A few 24 cases, movies in theaters, concerts, cartons of smokes and meals out turns an axis into a Tikka pretty quickly...
I used to be poor too, most did. How many 200 dollar budget shotguns do you own again?
If I could redo my gun buying I would go from many midrange guns to a handful of high quality ones a lot sooner.
When I go to the range my guns are sometimes worth more than the car that drives them.
I've had some of the same outdoor gear for almost a decade, I cringed when I bought it, but I used to replace my rain pants yearly and shiver in a north face jacket when it rained.
I understand not everyone can afford expensive stuff and that it's "expensive to be poor" but for urbanites hunting is ultimately a luxury. A few 24 cases, movies in theaters, concerts, cartons of smokes and meals out turns an axis into a Tikka pretty quickly...
Sure, many of us waste a lot of money every day that we could put into buying better guns. However, sometimes the formula can be overly influenced by being convinced by online stories to buy something that you don't really need.
My wife got into moose hunting about four years ago. She wanted a wood stock gun with open sites, I managed to find a Tikka Battue for her, dropped over 1500 on it. Nice gun, but I don't find it particularly accurate.
Local hardware store had a savage axis with open sites, ugly as sin, but 500 bucks. I wanted a cheap but accurate gun I could canoe hunt with, and not be too upset if it took a drink.
Once I adjusted the open sites on the axis, it shot considerably better than the Tikka.
I've owned lots of "moose guns", some fairly expensive, but for the few times I use them each year, the axis is fine, in fact, I really like shooting it.
I've also spent a lot of money on shotguns, mostly for grouse hunting, but I usually end up at some point in the season grabbing my cooey 410 or 20 gauge.
The internet has made me spend a lot of money on stuff I didn't really need, lol.
I have a Mossberg Predator in 22-250. I borescoped it and looks average for a factory barrel. It easily holds moa with the variety of factory and reload ammo I’ve put through it. I’ve used it a fair bit for hunting this winter and has not held me back compared to using one of my fancier rifles. Although it does the job there’s a couple places that are weak on it. The plastic bedding block could crack if the action screws are over tightened and the bolt stop screw is too small as mine broke. I got a deal on mine so I’ll use it for the kids to hunt with but if I was to pay the retail price I’d pay the extra for a higher quality rifle.
It’s a mossberg patriot a 400 $ gun this is hilarious what do you expect all the manufacture have lowered the standards to suit the market price point
Ruger 77 / Ruger American Rem 700/7 Rem 783 Winchester 70 win cpr
The point is the buying public will not pay for quality so this is the end result
Bore scopes mean very little when it comes to how a rifle will shoots
To the armchair rifle inspector it’s a 50 post conversation piece
Ruger 77 / Ruger American Rem 700/7 Rem 783 Winchester 70 win cpr
The point is the buying public will not pay for quality so this is the end result
Bore scopes mean very little when it comes to how a rifle will shoots
To the armchair rifle inspector it’s a 50 post conversation piece
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
That be true, especially nowadays. Uuugh.
Man, well put. My wife has a bmw motorcycle. I had a Honda st1300. I put a pile of trouble free miles on it. That bmw was alright, but stupid little problems.
Personally, I prefer to buy used guns over paying the premium for new. The minute I take it out of the store it becomes a used gun anyway, value wise(and don't get me started on the tax)....
You must do your due diligence though. Chances are if there was an issue it was worked out a long time ago, and decent sellers (like the ones here) will disclose if theres any issues.
I had a Patriot in .308 for a couple years. It was cheap and shot sub moa.
Sold it to a buddy for his kid for a small loss when I bought my Tikka.
It still shoots moa, and not much difference to the Tikka on paper.
The bolt was sloppy, the plastic was cheap, but at the end of the day it was still a cheap shooter.
I bought a Win mod 70, it shoots moa.
Looking at the bore of the Win with the bore scope it looks like a gravel road.
The Tikka looks like a paved road in comparison.
Didn't have a bore scope when I owned the Mossberg, so don't know how it looked, but it could shoot clover leafs if I did my part.
The Patriot is a cheap gun.
It won't win any beauty pageants.
Shoot it and see, it may be a decent shooter.
Lose the bore scope.
Sam
Sold it to a buddy for his kid for a small loss when I bought my Tikka.
It still shoots moa, and not much difference to the Tikka on paper.
The bolt was sloppy, the plastic was cheap, but at the end of the day it was still a cheap shooter.
I bought a Win mod 70, it shoots moa.
Looking at the bore of the Win with the bore scope it looks like a gravel road.
The Tikka looks like a paved road in comparison.
Didn't have a bore scope when I owned the Mossberg, so don't know how it looked, but it could shoot clover leafs if I did my part.
The Patriot is a cheap gun.
It won't win any beauty pageants.
Shoot it and see, it may be a decent shooter.
Lose the bore scope.
Sam
