Which .22LR shoots better? How can you know?
- Thread starter grauhanen
- Start date
If someone wishes to switch the discussion to air rifle slugs or pellets, this isn't the thread for it. The airgun section would be more appropriate.
It's possible that the rimfire ammo quality discussion in this thread has reached your saturation level. It may not have done so for others.
Funny how these threads seem to always reach this same point. I think those that want to debate a topic should get the gear, go out and do their own testing.... then they can discuss their real world experience vs others.
They certainly don't want to listen to the experience of others when it challenges how they perceive the world to be (next posts will be the prove this and prove that... you don't have enough information, evidence, whatever). Their opinion is fine but your experience is not... just makes me smile.
And anyone who can't understand the comparisons to the core reasons why rimfire just isn't going to be all that good, well, have at it. Everyone has an opinion and free to voice it.
'nuff said (actually quite surprised, this post stayed congenial longer then most)
Jerry
We are all different that's for sure.....
Carry on with your thread as you see fit, I'm not the one telling anyone what they can or can't think or post. It was an interesting thread that made me think outside your box.
Thanks.
When it comes to rimfire no one owns the box.
Provoking thought about .22LR is what it's all about. Too often, much of what is accepted as fact about rimfire is only stuff that's repeated regardless whether it's true. Unquestioned repetition lets people assume it's true.
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For .22LR shooters in general, below are some relevant examples of stuff that gets repeated but not necessarily true.
In this thread, the idea that ammo lots are consistent is not as true as we might like to think. From my own experience, I read -- and often said here and elsewhere -- that ammo
performance varied between lots, that it was necessary to find the lot(s) that shot best in a particular rifle. Once such a lot was found, good things would happen with regard to results down range. As straightforward as this might be, it is in fact not quite so simple.
Through shooting, chronographing, and tracking MV and POI for many thousands of rounds of many lots of .22LR match ammo I have learned that intra-lot consistency is not as good as is often believed -- at least for the match ammo lots we seem to get in Canada. In other words, performance can vary considerably from box-to-box and round-to-round within a lot.
The degree of variation was a surprise to me. Part of a lot of Midas +, for example, could be quite good, another part quite disappointing, and the rest somewhere in between. Shooter awareness of this has many implications, beginning with helping to understand what happens on target.
Another example that might be useful to many shooters is the idea that with .22LR barrel length has a direct relationship to ammo velocity. This gets repeated and readers believe it must be true. It's not quite so simple. The fact is that when ammo is chronographed over a variety of barrels and barrel lengths there is not a consistent relationship between average ammo velocity and barrel length. This is made clear when the exact same barrel is used and it is cut progressively shorter and tested at different lengths with the same lots of ammo.
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How to do a basic ammo test... count all the shots, let the pattern develop without prejudice. if the shots are out, they are out.. no excuses, old wives tales, but but but....some combos just don't work, move on. Lube between ammo types matters a bunch. Figure out a procedure that makes you happy. I push a patch through the bore.. then 10 into the dirt... but that is just me.
A rifle and shooter with the potential to shoot well will show good results once you can find the ammo that barrel prefers. Its real obvious .. no excuses required.
You don't need a tunnel or some high tech lab... just watch the wind, make good pulls from a solid rest, and let the rifle do the talking.
Club ammo isn't going to bughole with any degree of consistency. if you go into the upper grades of the better brands, the chances improve relative to the likes/dislikes of the system...
There is so much ongoing debate because shooters just don't want to admit they need to double or triple their ammo cost to get consistency (or a hope of that)... Don't shy away from tuners but only with the upper grades of ammo. Tuners don't stop flyers
FYI, this barrel obviously prefers the 'fast' ammo... SK LRM is the club grade of that fast family. Lapua long range and super long range are the better grades of this lineage of ammo types... think CenterX and Midas+ of the fast stuff.
Yes, it really is this straightforward....
For the newbies, this is how I think of the ammo lineage from SK/Lapua in descending order
Lapua XACT, Midas+, CenterX.... SK Rifle match, Std plus ... this is the 'slow' or std stuff
Lapua Super long range, long range... SK LRM.. this is the 'fast' stuff.
Start the testing with 1 box of SK RM and LRM... shoot 3X5rds and see if the barrel wants to be 'fast' or 'slow'. It should be very obvious.. if not, move further out (100yds is where I start and will go to 150yds or even 200yds to get clear results). Then test appropriate types of Lapua to get the consistency desired. Lots can matter, tuners can help speed up the process or lack of options.
Jerry
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Jerry, you should understand that this is not a thread about how to choose .22LR ammo. On top of that you promote ideas that are misleading or wrong.
With .22LR, barrels don't have preferences based on the average MV of the ammo. The ammo either shoots well or it doesn't. All .22LR match ammo, regardless of whether the ammo is faster or standard velocity, will vary in performance from one lot to another, indeed often from one box or round to another. In short, when it comes to accuracy performance, it's not the "speed" that matters. All good barrels will shoot all good ammo. The question is always one of ammo quality.
You say "Lots can matter". Lot-to-lot variation only won't matter when there's little difference in ammo consistency between them, regardless of average MV. Some lots are better or worse than others. No rifle can shoot a poor lot of ammo well. It will shoot good lots well.
You say "tuners can speed up the process or lack of options". How? In a post on how to select ammo, to casually suggest the use of tuners as a solution seems like you are putting the cart before the horse.
If a shooter doesn't have consistent ammo he can't find the best tuner setting. A tuner will improve ammo that's already good and consistent. It won't do anything worthwhile to inconsistent ammo. There are very few threads or posts by shooters who find consistent success with tuners. While the absence of evidence is not itself proof that many shooters don't find tuner success, it seems reasonable to expect to find more shooters posting about it if it indeed happens often. Recommending tuners to shooters who need advice on how to choose ammo seems ill-conceived.
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Leuchtkafer
Member
If I am to understand your communication correctly, you posit that any random "good" barrel will shoot any random "good" lot of ammo well, without exception. Perhaps you could clarify if this refers to barrels that do not have any muzzle devices attached, or those barrels with a muzzle device and are in a "stopped muzzle" condition?
In the past RabidM4U5 would have asked such a question. There's a good reason why you've picked up where he would have left off.
What shooters should understand is that good ammo is good ammo. It has certain characteristics, including a smaller rather than larger ES, small SD, bullets that are close to being balanced than not, and loaded with even and consistent crimping.
No barrel is able alter ammo so as to transform bad ammo into good. If a barrel is tuned with a MD then it can improve good ammo.
Leuchtkafer
Member
Indeed Unfortunate that some members are incapable of having adult conversations, though it is nice to get to know their true character behind the facade No sweat off my back if people want to spin their wheels, I'm off on my own adventure with nobody to satisfy but myself. I don't have the time to get wrapped up in childish nonsense on an internet forum, there's real world work to be done, and lots of it!
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I know a 54 that doesn't shoot tenex as well as SK rifle match, so not all good barrels, shoot good ammo good.
What about the smallest group in the 1/2" challenge was shot with a hunting profile barrel and CCI subsonic HP.
22 ammo is dice. It's un predictable. It's luck.
What about the smallest group in the 1/2" challenge was shot with a hunting profile barrel and CCI subsonic HP.
22 ammo is dice. It's un predictable. It's luck.
No sweat off my back if people want to spin their wheels, I'm off on my own adventure with nobody to satisfy but myself. I don't have the time to get wrapped up in childish nonsense on an internet forum, there's real world work to be done, and lots of it!
This continues to be very similar to remarks a former poster, RabidM4U5, used to make -- and often directed my way. He was combative and argumentative without reason (who in this thread is not having an "adult conversation"?). That was his prerogative, of course, just as it is Leuchtkafer's.
For readers in general, Leuchtkafer is the former poster RabidM4U5. He was banned on CGN just over a year ago. His new identity doesn't hide who he was. Both have the same handwriting.
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- Location
- Nova Scotia
Sadly he is kinda not wrong. Seems like only you have the right answer to why and everybody that suggest is wrong. So just spinning wheels going no wheres.
As always, I welcome any verifiable information that's relevant, especially if it's contradictory. If Jerry or Leuchtkafer (Rabid) or you or someone else has anything that's contrary to what I've said, please post the information. In short, if you have on-topic and pertinent facts let readers know.
At the same time, claims without any evidence or supporting information always remains opinion and not fact. Everyone has an opinion but that doesn't make them all equally sound. After all rimfire information isn't a children's event where a prize is awarded for participation.
Agree. More expensive ammo buys you a slightly better chance in the qc gamble. But it doesn't always work out for every rifle. - dan
- Location
- Nova Scotia
So all I see is it's a personal preference to what someone wants to run for a gun and their definition of accuracy. You're not gonna see a BR gun in a PRS match. So some guns are better for BR, some are better for PRS.
Roll those dice and wish for luck. Easter shoot I beat 2 Anschutz 54s with a Mossberg 144 LSA and Norma Tac 22 ammo and came first out of 11. It was just luck as others had bad days.
A lot of great dialogue in this thread. I endorse the statement that results depend largely on the
rimfire ammunition that is being used.
I lucked into a particular lot of ELEY EPS [Black Match] that performs very well in my SUHL.
Interestingly, it also works well in my 40X. I laid in a case+ because of it's performance.
Even at that, once in a while, I will get an unexplained "flyer" Obviously an ammo issue.
But it has put me in the ¼" [5-5shot groups at 50] group on here, so I cannot fault it. Dave.
rimfire ammunition that is being used.
I lucked into a particular lot of ELEY EPS [Black Match] that performs very well in my SUHL.
Interestingly, it also works well in my 40X. I laid in a case+ because of it's performance.
Even at that, once in a while, I will get an unexplained "flyer" Obviously an ammo issue.
But it has put me in the ¼" [5-5shot groups at 50] group on here, so I cannot fault it.
Dave.So true that "luck" can come to your door sometimes. And that without a valid explanation.
I entered a BR match here a long time ago. At the time the only "Tested" rifle scope combination I had was a 541T Remington sporter with a Leupold 6.5-20 on top.
At the line were 7 other shooters with HB rifles. [Anschutz, 40X, Walther, etc] The goal was to shoot one target of 10 shots for group, and one for score.
When the dust settled, I had both the smallest group, and the highest score. I got lucky that day, without a doubt. But I still have the trophy, lol.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Sweet.
Mind you my shoot was standing off hand. Why I said its luck.The person that normally comes, first beat us on a new years shoot with about the same course of fire hung over hard. This time wasn't even in the leader board.
