Reproduction No 32 Mk II Scope Comparison

Bartok5

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Introduction

So I bought a clone Long Branch 90L###X-series No 4 Mk 1* (T) Sniper Rifle, complete with a custom, Canadian R.E.L.-marked No 32 Mk II Scope. That scope is one of a batch that were commissioned by our very own Warren Wheatfield a while back. Unfortunately my scope had a broken Deflection Lead Screw that the former owner did not know about, so I had to immediately send the scope off to Warren for repair, as the repair of No 32 Scopes is his particular forte. Besides which, I’d have made a terrible mess had I been foolish enough to attempt the task armed only with Peter Laidler’s guide to the WW II British scopes. With my scope sitting in Warren's repair queue, I needed a replacement so that I could at least shoot my new rifle. That is what led me to eventually obtain one of each of the two Repro No 32 Mk II Scopes that are currently for sale on the international collector market. The idea was to keep the better of the two and sell the other.





Both scopes arrived within a couple days of each other, approximately a month after ordering (presumably due to CBSA retention). I did not do any torture testing" nor any live-fire evaluation of the Scopes because I had to keep them in "As New" condition in order to sell one of the two after my initial examination was complete. What I will provide here are simply my general first impressions, including some specific points that I noticed about each of the scopes. I will wrap up with my recommendations for future purchasers.



The Red Star Mountain (RSM) Chinese Repro No 32 Mk II

Red Star Mountain (RSM) is a Chinese company that reverse-engineers classic WW2 scopes, including the subject of this section of the thread. They then sell their scopes to collectors through their website (www.redstarmountain.com) as well as through ebay.com where they are the ones noted as being shipped from China.

The RSM Scopes are most readily identified by their matte-black, British “Suncorite”-style, baked-on Painted Enamel Finish. The first thing that my critical eye noticed about the finish on this scope is that it appears to be a bit inconsistent in several places on the main drawn-steel Scope Tube. I do not know if this is a function of the paint or the underlying metal, but I believe that it is just how the paint reacts to being baked. As far as resembling British “Sunkorite, the finish is pretty convincing.





My next observation related to the finish was that the Numbers on the Turrets and the Scope’s “No 32 Mk II” markings are not painted white but rather have been left black. They did go to the trouble to paint the triangle “pointers” on the Deflection and Elevation Mechanism Housing, but that was the extent of it.





The “No 32 Mk II” markings are complete, but in the wrong format and engraved in a very small font. I am sure that they would have looked better had they been highlighted in White.





The one and only thing that I could “function test” were the Deflection and Elevation adjustments and the movement of the Turrets themselves. The adjustments appeared to move the Graticle in the correct fashion and in consistent increments. The thing that jumped out at me here was that the Turret Adjustment “clicks” were not quite uniform. Rather, the turrets seemed to almost skip over a few clicks before they would snag on a particularly sharp detent. The Turrets turned freely enough, but the inconsistent “clicks” with their less than smooth adjustment were just a bit off-putting.





On the positive side, the RSM Scope did come with a Deflection and Elevation Mechanism Housing that appeared to be cast rather than CnC Machined as is the case with the competition. The Scope is correctly configured and to correct scale, with genuine Brass Diopter, Turrets and Sun Shade, all appropriately blackened.





Optically, the RSM Scope was (to my eye) surprisingly crisp, clear and bright. There was no edge distortion that I could see, and colours appeared true. The factory focus was fine for my corrected vision, so there should be no reason to have to attempt to rotate that thin Brass Diopter.



The “Waffenmeister” / Taiwanese Repro No 32 Mk II

The other repro No 32 Mk II Scope on the international collector market is purportedly a Taiwanese product, fronted by a US Company called “Waffenmeisters” (www.waffenmeisters.com). The US company sells the repro Scopes both on their dedicated website and on ebay (where they are noted as originating from the USA).





The Waffenmeisters Scope is readily identifiable by the highly-polished, Blued finish on the drawn Steel Scope Tube. As counterintuitive as it might seem to have a shiny sniper scope, that is precisely the same finish as found on my genuine Canadian R.E.L. No 32 Mk 3 Scope. They are dead-ringers, finish-wise.





My next observation related to the Scope’s finish was the attention to detain in the white painted markings. The numbers on the Deflection and Elevation Turrets as well as their triangular “Pointers” and the Scope’s “No 32 Mk II” markings are all crisply painted, just like the originals.





One point that I did ding the “Waffenmeisters” Scope for however, was the overly large size of the font used for the Scope’s markings. While not a show-stopper, the markings are about 30% too large – perhaps to clearly distinguish the repro from a genuine No 32 Mk II Scope? I cannot say. The content of the markings on the other hand, is excellent and very authentic as opposed to the Chinese competition with its 2014 date engraved among the markings.





I noted that the Deflection and Elevation Turrets on the “Waffenmeisters” Scope turn easily and with very consistent and even “click” detents. The Deflection and Elevation Mechanism Housing features much Sharper edges than those on my original R.E.L. Scope, along with a smooth, CnC machined finish rather than the slightly pebbled finish of the original’s fine casting. The Scope is correctly configured and to correct scale, with genuine Brass Diopter, Turrets and Sunshade, all appropriately blackened.





Optically, the Taiwanese “Waffenmeisters” Scope appears to be the equal of the Chinese RSM version. The Graticle appears to track evenly and accurately. Edge to edge clarity is very good and the image is bright and crisply focused to my corrected vision.
 
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Conclusion and Recommendations

While admittedly a sample size of just one from each of the two current manufacturers of reproduction No 32 Mk II Scopes, I think my findings are representative of each product line. One should not expect much variation in the production of these scopes from copy to copy, given the use of CnC Machining in their manufacturing process. I am confident that the strengths and areas for improvement noted in my initial observations apply equally to every scope produced by each of the manufacturers.

The RSM Scope is by virtue of its “Sunkorite”-like finish, probably best-suited to those interested in assembling a British No 4 (T) clone/tribute/representation. That said, with its rough turret operation I have a difficult time recommending this scope fully on par with the Taiwanese “Waffenmeisters” effort now that I have seen both side by side. I think that it would serve in a satisfactory manner and with time the turret adjustments might even “wear-in”, I don’t know. What I can say is that their inconsistent resistance in turning was annoying to me. If on the other hand, you ascribe to the “set the turrets and then hold-over”, then their slightly rough operation may not matter to you. Everyone must choose for themselves what is relevant and/or important to their particular needs.

The ”Waffenmeisters” scope is alternatively, best-suited to a Canadian Long Branch No 4 (T) clone/tribute/representation by virtue of its polished, blue finish. The markings aren’t correct for a Canadian R.E.L.-manufactured No 32 Mk II Scope, but that is a fairly minor detail. Those wanting a matte black finish to represent a British No 32 Mk II Scope could always mask the Turret markings and lenses to spray with a matte black enamel, but again that is a level of detail that most may not understandably wish to pursue. I’m just noting that it could be easily done if desired.





Based on my findings above, I elected to sell the Chinese RSM Scope at a loss to a fellow CGNer. I retained the Taiwanese “Waffenmeisters” Scope for shooting with my genuine Long Branch No 4 Mk 1* (T), as I have no desire to see my next shot or the one after result in irreparable damage to my original R.E.L. No 32 Mk 3 Scope. All it takes is for the 80-year old adhesive bonding the various lense sets to let go under recoil, and suddenly your irreplaceable $10K Scope is opaque from adhesive failure. Not cool. So I intend to err on the side of judgement and keep my original Scope safely at home. Live fire is where the reproduction comes into play and earns its keep. For the time being it will find a home on my Clone Long Branch No 4 Mk 1* (T) while the dedicated R.E.L. clone Scope is off with Warren for repairs. Then it will migrate over to the genuine rifle.

Hopefully anyone currently in the market for a reproduction No 32 Mk II Scope can benefit from this thread with a quick forum search. I will append the original post with any follow-on information from live-firing, should anything relevant manifest itself. Otherwise, happy shopping, discussion, and even better shooting!


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I particularly enjoyed reading your assessments on the No.32 scope repros. I will never have a need for one. I assume they come with the adjusting tool for the zero. I looked for an original REL Mk II scoped complete sniping unit for many decades but never found one. I came to the conclusion that most of the LB units set up with Mk I and Mk II scopes went overseas to a common war stores and were basically used up. The REL Mk III scoped units went over so late in the game they were never issued at all. I also take it that these repro Mk II scopes are not waterproofed (sealed as the originals) but it is more than possible that original scopes were not sealed or had bloomed lenses until the Mk III scopes. My speculation is inconsequential. Thanks for your efforts. John
 
I particularly enjoyed reading your assessments on the No.32 scope repros. I will never have a need for one. I assume they come with the adjusting tool for the zero. I looked for an original REL Mk II scoped complete sniping unit for many decades but never found one. I came to the conclusion that most of the LB units set up with Mk I and Mk II scopes went overseas to a common war stores and were basically used up. The REL Mk III scoped units went over so late in the game they were never issued at all. I also take it that these repro Mk II scopes are not waterproofed (sealed as the originals) but it is more than possible that original scopes were not sealed or had bloomed lenses until the Mk III scopes. My speculation is inconsequential. Thanks for your efforts. John

Thanks very much for the kind words! I believe that you are largely correct regarding the relative rarity of Long Branch No 4 (T)s dated prior to 1945. As a consequence of their rarity they fetch a premium price. As we know based on very recent transactions, the "going rate" for a non-issued 1945 90L###X series Long Branch No 4T with the correct matching No 32 Mk 3 Scope and Mounting Bracket is in the neighborhood of $15K (CAD). A pre-45 Long Branch No 4 (T) would sell for more. How much more is anyone's guess. The most premium price is reserved for matching pre-1945 Long Branch Snipers without British Proofmarks, indicating that the rifle never left Canadian service and therefore would have been carried by a bonafide Canadian wartime Sniper.

There is a fairly lengthy thread concerning the current cost of Collector-grade Long Branch No 4 (T)s and their comparatively few production numbers (1588, of which 375 were 1945 production fitted with no 32 Mk 3 Scopes). Less than 1600 total Canadian Sniper rifles, compared to the tens of thousands of British versions manufactured, means that after the combat losses and post-war surplus distribution of surviving rifles worldwide, the Long Branch Snipers are truly few and far between - especially in matching condition. You can find that thread here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...g-Branch-No-4-Mk-1-T-Sniper-Rifle-Set-Me-Back
 
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Warren does a very nice job of rebuilding these original scopes
I had one done that came with myDCRA converted no4 MkT
 
I checked out both scopes and spoke to Warren and ended up purchasing the Waffenmeisters model. I've only had it out to the range once but it seemed to work quite well. The glass seems very clear.
 
Bartok5 your assesment was inspiring. I was hoping to try making a sniper clone from a Lithgow that was sporterized badly.
thanks again for all the info.
 
Update to my Waffenmeister scope. I posted this in another thread but this one is probably more relevant.

I had my scope professionally installed and got it zero'd and shot it a bit when I realized I was having a lot of trouble seeing the target. The image seemed nice and clear but with a bit of experience with the scope it became obvious there was a fuzzy area right at the centre of the image, right where the target would be located when peering through the centre of the scope.

I soon discovered that moving my head slightly to left caused the scope image to become clean and focussed. It was still possible to line up the reticle with the target while avoiding the fuzzy area at the middle of the image.

It took me a while to get in contact with Waffenmeisters. They didn't reply to initial emails. I called and was told to email and that email did not get replied to. I may have tried to cal a second time. In the end I decided to contact them through the eBay email system and that seemed to have the desired results as suddenly I got fairly quick replies. There was a little bit of resistance at first but eventually they decided to replace my scope. I mailed it off to them and after it arrived, they sent a replacement back to me.

I haven't had a chance to shoot the replacement yet but I have checked it out for optical clarity and this one seems fine. For sure, no fuzzy area at the centre of the image this time.
 
Good day, any recommendations regarding what is better to use for conversion, Looking for China one. Is it ok for target shooting?
 
The Waffenmeister scope is the way to go.

I shot mine out to 800 yds today. Wasn't able to hit the target but for sure could see the target clearly ... as clearly as is possible with a 3.4x scope at that distance.
 
Good day, any recommendations regarding what is better to use for conversion, Looking for China one. Is it ok for target shooting?

Stay as far away from the Chinese Red Star Mountain scopes as you can get. They are trash compared to the "Waffenmeister" scope, which is available from the USA on eBay. Just make sure you buy from "Waffenmeisters" and you will be good to go.
 
Here in UK a fellow club member recently acquired a genuine all-Canadian No4[T] totally complete with every accessory and documentation.

He did not know where it had been, but suspected it had been in a hoard/firearm cache - they do happen, albeit very rarely. It had to be UK proofed so that he could buy it - and paid £11500 for it - currently just over CAN$19000.
 
The complaint about focus from I Don't Care About You reminded me that Peter Laidler posted instructions on the Milsurps forum on how to adjust the focus on a No.32. It involves removing the four screws that hold the 'inspection pot' cover in place and then twiddling something inside. Let your fingers do the walking!
 
Here in UK a fellow club member recently acquired a genuine all-Canadian No4[T] totally complete with every accessory and documentation.

He did not know where it had been, but suspected it had been in a hoard/firearm cache - they do happen, albeit very rarely. It had to be UK proofed so that he could buy it - and paid £11500 for it - currently just over CAN$19000.
If you go to gun post.ca there are 3 or 4 original No.4 T's listed. I doubt any of them are as complete as yours but the rifles themselves are certainly available if one chooses to make such an investment.


The complaint about focus from I Don't Care About You reminded me that Peter Laidler posted instructions on the Milsurps forum on how to adjust the focus on a No.32. It involves removing the four screws that hold the 'inspection pot' cover in place and then twiddling something inside. Let your fingers do the walking!
I read the Laidler post. My complaint wasn't about the focus but about a spot at the centre of the image that was fuzzy or smudged or ....?
 
If you go to gun post.ca there are 3 or 4 original No.4 T's listed. I doubt any of them are as complete as yours but the rifles themselves are certainly available if one chooses to make such an investment.



I read the Laidler post. My complaint wasn't about the focus but about a spot at the centre of the image that was fuzzy or smudged or ....?
Optical defects are almost unsalvageable. Good luck.
 
If you go to gun post.ca there are 3 or 4 original No.4 T's listed. I doubt any of them are as complete as yours but the rifles themselves are certainly available if one chooses to make such an investment.

Not mine, a fellow member's. I mean do I LOOK like somebody with twenty-thousand bucks to spend on a rifle? We're talking car/truck money here!!!!!
 
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