24,933.5 feet per second. Yea that is a real value, on average. No, a rifle will never achieve that.
Bear rifle. Will 44 mag be enough?
- Thread starter Jdiep
- Start date
24,933.5 feet per second. Yea that is a real value, on average. No, a rifle will never achieve that.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The problem anytime the .45-70 and heavy hard cast debate comes up, is folks think when you say speed kills you’re advocating for magnums with a double radius shoulder. Regular, modern (WWI and beyond) speed is all it takes. More is just insurance and carries the effect further.
A .30-06 with a good bullet is more grizz / big bear gun than the heaviest .45-70 load. Can check that with Phil Shoemaker as well. And what makes that so, is simply adequate speed.
westcoaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central BC
This speed thing actually matches up with the last bear I shot. My dad passed and gave me his 4570. I used it a couple of summers ago on a black bear that had been hanging around the cottage. I shot him in the boiler room, he ran off and died quietly. Took a few minutes. 405 grn bullet at whatever those remington cartridges travel at.
With the 416, it ran 400 grn swift AFrames at about 2700fps. This is a stout load. When it hits a blackbear it absolutely flattnens them.
Roughly the same size projectile but 1000fps velocity delta.
With the 416, it ran 400 grn swift AFrames at about 2700fps. This is a stout load. When it hits a blackbear it absolutely flattnens them.
Roughly the same size projectile but 1000fps velocity delta.
We had alot of black bear problems back when I worked with the Sask Geological Survey, and we shot problem black bears with both 20ga slugs and a 303.
For pure bear defense I'll take speed over slow and heavy all day, every day.
For pure bear defense I'll take speed over slow and heavy all day, every day.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Winchester was ahead of the curve when they developed the .348. That’s the ballistics you want, if you want to anchor bears from a lever gun. If it wasn’t a complete only child components wise, I’d own a 71.
I think it’s academic. If a stout .45-70 connect with bone, Yogi is going to have a very bad day. It comes down to shot placement with either type of round. I’d feel perfectly safe with a .30-06 shooting 180gn partitions too.
The US forest service published comparisons of bear spray vs firearms effectiveness in stopping bears. Spray had the slight edge, but I thin it was 87% of shooters of all kinds succeeded in stopping a dangerous bear. A really wide array of calibres were represented.
The sample size was over 260 encounters.
The US forest service published comparisons of bear spray vs firearms effectiveness in stopping bears. Spray had the slight edge, but I thin it was 87% of shooters of all kinds succeeded in stopping a dangerous bear. A really wide array of calibres were represented.
The sample size was over 260 encounters.
You make a good point. If OPs concern is bear defense, a can of spray is a hell of a lot lighter and handier than a rifle or shotgun. Gun folks like guns though, evidence be damned lol...
Spray and guns are tools int he toolbox. I've never had a bear I shot continue to be alive and menacing whereas I can't say that for spray.
Also I've never been injured by a bear gun but I can't say that about spray.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Fer the speed freaks. Uuugh.
For anyone carrying bear spray, they should recognize its limitations: short range (20-30ft), short duration before canister is empty, direction and effects of wind (if bear is upwind your range will be further reduced and you may contaminate yourself), effects of foliage between you and bear which will impact effectiveness, etc. Lastly if you plan on taking spray, practice with the same product that you’ll be carrying (run a bunch of wind sprints to get your heart rate up, engage the target while moving off the X) and realize that an angry charging bear might fight thru the spray and continue its attack.
.44 is great as a emergency back up if we could carry the handgun. Slugs in a tac shotgun perfect, I have a 14" with 3 grips. 308 and bigger any bear is history...Check out the Black Creek Labs 308 in 9.5" and folding stock-very cool but $$$. It is great quality but for some reason they put a plastic dollar store mag on it. Bear spray I have never actually used only thing I know is the can I bought was already out of date in less than a year.
25,000 MPH to escape earths gravity.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Here’s the thing though, I’ve sprayed inert training bear spray and it’s not all that encouraging when you see it’s range, how quick a can is emptied or how much it’s affected by wind. I have it and agree it’s a useful tool but I’d never pick it over a gun, I’m much more accustomed to using a rifle. The average person that carries spray has likely never practiced spraying it, especially in a high stress moment. At least with a rifle I can practice relatively cheaply, vs using expired bear spray for practice or buying an inert setup.
One of my work contracts is in pretty remote high elevation areas, lots of bear sign. I’ve seen grizzly bears a few times, I don’t carry it due to the puncture risk and steep slopes nor do I carry a gun. Not that I’m really concerned with a bear attack anyway, we make way to much noise that most wildlife steer clear of us in the first place.
Get bumped by a slow moving tractor and you may or may not get a bruise.
Fail to look both ways before crossing the street and get plastered be a wound out Porche and you might not live long enough for a bruise to form.
Or drop a bullet on one foot and shoot yourself in the other one.
there was a couple and their dog killed just recently and empty bear canisters found at the sight...it was all over the news as it happened last season or so....we should be able to carry a 9mm anywhere out there but yeah, bear spray is better than nothing most of the time, I carry it at the ready far more than I carry a rifle at the ready
Effectiveness or non effectiveness of bear spray aside; how much practice does anyone ever really get with the spray? A can or two in their whole life, if that? On the other hand who hasn’t shot hundreds of rounds as the barest of minimums? Many are in uncountable thousands of rounds. Why not go with what you know?
My bear spray story involved a coyote. We were drilling on the Primrose bombing range and there are coyotes that have been following the rigs along for human generations never mind coyote generations. Guys feed them, and they were all over the place. One in particular started nipping people on the heels, usually when they were carrying something. The little bastard bit me just above the boot top one day; I sort of took that personal even though there was no real injury. The next day when I left the command centre at the end of my shift I took one of the many cans of bear spray from the boot rack. Sure enough he showed up again and I got about 1/2 can into him. It was very disappointing, he didn’t do much of anything but move off and paw his eyes a bit. Funny thing was when pawing didn’t work he came back and laid on his back with exposed belly and pecker in that submissive position dogs do. I wasn’t interested in sniffing his nuts so gave him the other half of the can.
The pattern I see for spray recomendations is they are pushed by people who don’t like guns, don’t like people carrying them, don't want guns on job sites, don’t want guns in parks, or COs that think everyone in the bush with a gun is a poacher. The rest are cheering for the bears.
My bear spray story involved a coyote. We were drilling on the Primrose bombing range and there are coyotes that have been following the rigs along for human generations never mind coyote generations. Guys feed them, and they were all over the place. One in particular started nipping people on the heels, usually when they were carrying something. The little bastard bit me just above the boot top one day; I sort of took that personal even though there was no real injury. The next day when I left the command centre at the end of my shift I took one of the many cans of bear spray from the boot rack. Sure enough he showed up again and I got about 1/2 can into him. It was very disappointing, he didn’t do much of anything but move off and paw his eyes a bit. Funny thing was when pawing didn’t work he came back and laid on his back with exposed belly and pecker in that submissive position dogs do. I wasn’t interested in sniffing his nuts so gave him the other half of the can.
The pattern I see for spray recomendations is they are pushed by people who don’t like guns, don’t like people carrying them, don't want guns on job sites, don’t want guns in parks, or COs that think everyone in the bush with a gun is a poacher. The rest are cheering for the bears.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Fer the speed freaks. Uuugh.
Speed freaks being the hunters using .303, .30-06, .308, 8x57 and for that matter nearly every rifle cartridge devised since the outbreak of WWI.
People always try to characterize the argument in extremes, like you’re pushing for everyone to use a .300 Wby. Those rounds just carry the effect of modern velocity further afield, but you can get it in typical Canadian ranges with just a .303.
How much practice does one need to be effective with spray? How much easier is it to hit your target with a continuous jet vs a single projectile? How many hands does it take to use spray?
The pattern I see for gun recommendations are people tend to think they're John Wick, when in reality they're closer to Elmer Fudd... Not calling out anyone in particular in this thread, but the majority of us put a LOT more ammo downrange in a given year than the vast majority of hunters who would scoff at the recommendation of carrying bear spray based on the assumption their rifle will always trump spray.
People often misunderstand how spray is effective too. Far too many people think bear spray is going to completely incapacitate a bear and the bear will run away with its tail between its legs. That can happen, but it shouldn't be expected, the expectation should be that the spray will buy you enough time for YOU to get out of there.
I'd wager the same can be said for gun people.
I'm certainly not against using guns for bear defense, its my first choice too, I just think that gun people tend to over-estimate their effectiveness with guns, while vastly under-estimating the potential usefulness of spray. According to Smith et al. from two studies in 2008 and 2012 on spray and guns respectively, spray is more effective at stopping you from being hurt.
http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/8/firearm-vs-bear-spray
How many hands does it take to use spray? You might get it out of the velcro holster with one hand, but you probably won’t. The plastic zip tie that always seems to be left on takes two hands, and the plastic retainer/lock piece will take both hands for sure. All will require you to actually look at them to accomplish.
Last couple weeks I’ve averaged my thumb on the safety twice a day. So far I’ve been able to talk them down though
