Hah funny enough I have no more use for a 360 buckhammer, but that cartridge interests me far more than the 350L.
Perhaps because those sort of ballistics feel more appropriate in a lever action?...
350 Legend vs ......
- Thread starter rgp11
- Start date
Perhaps because those sort of ballistics feel more appropriate in a lever action?...
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rick you seem to be inferring a roll crimp is the reason for better headspace, and as such accuracy. The actual reason a strong crimp increases accuracy is a reduction is standard deviation, it promotes more consistent ignition, burn, and pressures.
As what it does to headspace, if you fully roll crimp a case such as you would a .38 or .44, it will not properly or reliably headspace in a rimless, straight wall case. Partial roll crimping can work, but you are reducing your headspace bearing area, without question. It is not improving headspace, it’s detrimental to it. You can just get away with a little and improve your powder burns consistency.
Put a rim or shoulder on the case, and now you can crimp all you want.
As what it does to headspace, if you fully roll crimp a case such as you would a .38 or .44, it will not properly or reliably headspace in a rimless, straight wall case. Partial roll crimping can work, but you are reducing your headspace bearing area, without question. It is not improving headspace, it’s detrimental to it. You can just get away with a little and improve your powder burns consistency.
Put a rim or shoulder on the case, and now you can crimp all you want.
Hard not to want the 350, in a non-lever action rifle haha. But its just not really bringing anything that 7.62x39 isn't.
If I had money to blow maybe. 300 Ham'r would be awesome on a 223 bolt head and mag setup also but it doesn't have the factory ammo support
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
I heartily concur with ye on that. I'm a long time reloader & fan of straight wall cartridges. I like my Ruger American Ranch in 350L just fine.I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and state that...while I agree with every single comment above regarding the low-performance of the round vs bottleneck cartridges and the lack of a truly practical excuse or need for the 350 Legend in Canada...we should not forget one of the simplest and most valid reasons for trying a new gun or cartridge: because you just like the idea and want to try it.
You state specifically that you are interested...fascinated, actually...by the straight-wall idea. That's a great reason to play with it! Personally, I feel the same way and am forever looking for an excuse to use a .45-70 for hunting or plinking. The .350Legend...or even better, the rimmed .360Buckhammer...have much of the same style and panache of the bigger round, but kick less and should be more comfortable to shoot.
If you must "math to death" every animal you shoot...if you need to extract every last possible fps of velocity and ft-lb of energy from every round you send downrange...if everything must be the fastest/flattest/highest-BC/lowest-drag possible...then you must look elsewhere. If the limitations of a cartridge are as interesting as its attributes...if you can smile at the sound and thump of a big bullet arching downrange and hitting a target, while not fretting if you are forced to admit that sometimes it's just too far to shoot...you might love one of these things.
And don't forget: you're not married to the thing. Buy it, try it, play with it; decide whether or not to keep it, and if don't want to then sell it and move on. Easy-peasy.
Lots of bullet styles & weights available out there for the .355" projectiles as well for us folks that cast their own.
Sizing down .358 boolits ain't a bother to me if needed.
I'm hoping that Rossi brings out the R95 Trapper in 360 BHMR meself.
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Again, I didn't come up with the idea of roll crimping instead of taper crimping for autopistols all on my own - I listened and followed the lead of competitors that were at the very top of the sport. These days, BTW, for all I know the top competitors are now using taper crimps as they seat the bullets well inside the cases.
Meanwhile, you seem to have started by inferring that a roll crimp won't headspace properly - but a taper crimp will. That a taper crimp will uniformly seat against the front edge of that straight wall chamber - but a roll crimp for some unexplained reason won't. You state that as though that is a recognized fact, without any explanation, just a declaration.
You really ought to try what I suggested: apply whatever crimp you like to your straight walled cases without a bullet seated, chamber them, and use a borescope to see if the crimped edge is actually sitting against the front edge of the chamber.
Further to that, whatever crimp is used in whatever autopistol of whatever caliber, how many reloaders trim every single case to the same length before reloading - versus dumping handfuls of deprimed and cleaned empties into the hopper of their case feeder?
I don't know a single competitor who does that - including myself. I did it once with 5,000 new unprimed W-W cases, hoping to find a tiny bit more grouping capability in my 1500 and Distinguished guns from perfect crimps. I even tried trimming down .357 Magnum cases so that they just managed to chamber to ensure the front edge of the case was against the front edge of the chamber. The Ransom Rest told me that even after multiple firings, all I had done was waste my time. Which competitors well above my skill level had told me beforehand that I would be wasting my time.
Now you're including in that inference that the actual reason those of us doing that do so is because it promotes more consistent ignition, burn, and pressures - which I suppose means that a taper crimp suffers from less consistent ignition, burn, and pressures. Why taper crimp then?
Meanwhile, we do not put a "strong" roll crimp on bullets used in autopistols in PPC and Bullseye - we just barely roll the crimp over the top edge of the bullet. Barely.
If I needed a project, I would test the same load with absolutely no crimp, a roll crimp, and a taper crimp using cases all precisely trimmed to the same length. But what I do now works for me and I've already spent many days in years past with handguns varying the amount of crimp on precisely trimmed cases, looking for a perfect sweet spot where grouping ability suddenly improved, only to find out that perfect sweet spot doesn't exist.
A reloader's firearms and ammunition will give them range results as to what works best for type of crimps and amount of crimp, just as it will with different powders and different charge weights. They can do that for themselves rather than relying on what anyone including me posts on the internet.
Possibly could be: most of us reloading for more than a few months know that every firearm is an individual in what you feed it, whether factory or reloads.
A reloader's firearms and ammunition will give them range results as to what works best for type of crimps and amount of crimp, just as it will with different powders and different charge weights.
As I said earlier, put your preferred crimp on a case without a bullet seated, chamber it, then look at the edge of the chamber to see if the edge of the crimped case is truly headspaced seated against the front edge of the chamber.
While you're at it you can cut away a portion of the base of one of your 375 H&H cases (or other belted magnum), then chamber that modified case so you can use your borescope to assure yourself that your ammunition is properly headspacing by the top edge of the belt sitting against the belt portion of the chamber. Belt headspacing isn't happening in my 1960's Husqvarna 358 Norma Magnum - headspacing is happening up front and the belt is just a useless decoration at the back.
LOL... some of us appear to be allergic to the idea of using a borescope to see if the headspacing they assume is happening is actually doing that.
Or... LOL again... simply trying different kinds of crimps to see if the results confirm personal biases and one's personal "everybody knows" knowledge database.
Have you ever actually attempted any of those? Do you have any pistols with "match chambers" to try different things while developing loads?
"Match chamber" in handguns is about as certain a guarantee of high quality headspacing as "mil spec". "Match chambers" in 10mm pistols with 4" barrels are there because the purchasers are going to use those 10mms to compete in precision events.... uh huh...
Oh yes, LOL indeed.
Don't be afraid: do some experimenting to confirm what you are certain to the core of your very being that you know to be true.
Not allergic to any of that in the least I just think your tone is funny. Anyone who wants to can have at her, I'd be happy to hear about it. Perhaps there are pictures/descriptions of it? Would be in the wrong field if I was afraid of the results of experimenting with anything hahaha
Nope I don't have a match pistol anymore. I have, as well as custom aftermarket barrels for rack grade pistols. Probably won't ever buy a borescope cause I am not interested enough in using one to spend the cash.
Nope I don't have a match pistol anymore. I have, as well as custom aftermarket barrels for rack grade pistols. Probably won't ever buy a borescope cause I am not interested enough in using one to spend the cash.
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Wasn't doing any of that at all. Would have said "huh!" and carried on had the response been more "actually, it works well in all chambers. take a look and see" and not the whole "do you have a match pistol?" "those of us who have been reloading for a few months" and "some of us appear allergic to..." flexing hahaha. The last line of your post before this one almost had me rolling. Bigger and worse assumptions would be hard to imagine.
You may well be right, and if so I can admit that, but you come off very amusing. Not my fault. Use that tone, I'mma laugh at ya. Don't, and it would have been a nice convo and no provocation from my side at all.
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rick you seem intent on proving headspace in straight wall rimless cases somehow doesn’t rely on the case mouth being prominently and squarely available to rest upon the front of the chamber and headspace the cartridge. It doesn’t take a long post to explain that it certainly does.
Roll crimps needless to say turn the case mouth into the bullet and or cannelure. Do much of that, and you’ve got nothing to headspace on. You can get away with a little, and make your loads more consistent and accurate as a result. A taper crimp is a wiser choice and the standard for good reasons however. To broadly say roll crimping makes rimless cartridges better is unfortunately just incorrect, and in the context of the .350 Legend in particular just a bad idea.
Nothing personal and if mild roll crimps are working for you in pistol cartridges I’m happy for you. But I’d certainly recommend .350 Legend owners don’t read your posts and figure they’re good to roll crimp a high pressure rifle cartridge that relies on the case mouth to safely headspace. There’s a damn good reason the US military stake crimped and asphalted the bullets into the .30 Carbine.
Roll crimps needless to say turn the case mouth into the bullet and or cannelure. Do much of that, and you’ve got nothing to headspace on. You can get away with a little, and make your loads more consistent and accurate as a result. A taper crimp is a wiser choice and the standard for good reasons however. To broadly say roll crimping makes rimless cartridges better is unfortunately just incorrect, and in the context of the .350 Legend in particular just a bad idea.
Nothing personal and if mild roll crimps are working for you in pistol cartridges I’m happy for you. But I’d certainly recommend .350 Legend owners don’t read your posts and figure they’re good to roll crimp a high pressure rifle cartridge that relies on the case mouth to safely headspace. There’s a damn good reason the US military stake crimped and asphalted the bullets into the .30 Carbine.
The 350 legend has advantages being available in light trim bolt action rifles offering mild recoil and ballistics about equal to the 3030. Any woods hunter knows the 3030 works
Now the 360 buckhammer is much more appealling to me personally. It's like a flatter shooting lighter recoiling 4570 and I think they'd pair very well
I am also interested in the 400 legend. I think it would be a great bear over bait rifle but they've been slow to come to market
Sure there's faster and flatter shooting cartridges but not all of us hunt in areas with open fields to shoot over. Where I hunt 80 yards is a far shot so close range rifles have a place
Bottom line is if you want it buy it. You live once. It's only money
Now the 360 buckhammer is much more appealling to me personally. It's like a flatter shooting lighter recoiling 4570 and I think they'd pair very well
I am also interested in the 400 legend. I think it would be a great bear over bait rifle but they've been slow to come to market
Sure there's faster and flatter shooting cartridges but not all of us hunt in areas with open fields to shoot over. Where I hunt 80 yards is a far shot so close range rifles have a place
Bottom line is if you want it buy it. You live once. It's only money
I'm also on the "fence" of if you want to then try it!
I purchased a 450BM single shot rifle early spring, and have been enjoying to load for and shoot it. Totally new experiences with it for sure, that I would not have had otherwise. It will be my elk/moose rifle for this years hunting trips, with my 6.5 PRC as backup. I carried a 444 single shot last year, and was able to play with a 45-70 lever action for a bit that I bought for my brother.
300 yd gongs ring with authority, but it is a bit more than the 350 for energy.
I purchased a 450BM single shot rifle early spring, and have been enjoying to load for and shoot it. Totally new experiences with it for sure, that I would not have had otherwise. It will be my elk/moose rifle for this years hunting trips, with my 6.5 PRC as backup. I carried a 444 single shot last year, and was able to play with a 45-70 lever action for a bit that I bought for my brother.
300 yd gongs ring with authority, but it is a bit more than the 350 for energy.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
X2! Me favorite for years now.
Light trim rifles. Like the ones 30-30 comes in! lol
But as you say, its only money. You can't take it with you when you go, despite what the pharaohs might have thought.
They sure took a good run at it all the same!
Some of us weirdos actually prefer bolt guns to lever guns. I know. It is what it is haha.
That sounds like a blast. The cheaper 450 Bush Hamster single shots are really tempting. Been feelin that urge lately too. Sounds like you're really enjoying it
Right back at ya: You seem determined to convince people there is no way that a roll crimped pistol cartridge can properly headspace in a pistol - but on the other hand a taper crimp does. Or in a rifle if you prefer to narrow it down to that.
What makes you so certain that a) everybody trims every single one of their straight walled cases to exactly the same length? And b), if you actually do that, whatever your chosen length, when you chamber your reloads (no matter what kind of crimp you applied, if any) that in fact "the case mouth is prominently and squarely resting upon the front of the chamber" to headspace the cartridge?
It would be magical if every single chamber cut for straight walled cartridges measured exactly the same distance from the back to the front edge of each and every chamber. No differences whether the chambering reamer was new or worn, no differences from variations from barrel to barrel in the chambering machinery. Exactly the same - so all you have to do to get headspacing right is trim all your cases to the length specified in your reloading manual to get that case mouth/chamber edge contact for headspacing.
Nothing personal, but if you want to cling to that belief without bothering to even try the alternative, if that works for you, I am never going to tell you that you must stop doing that. Nor am I going to order you to break out a borescope and confirm that all your straight walled cases, however they're crimped, are in fact firmly seated against the forward edge of the chamber in order to be properly headspaced.
If you do in fact have a look and discover that they are short of the front edge of the chamber, what then?
How many reloaders of straight walled cases ensure that all their cases are trimmed to be the specified maximum trim to length for the cartridge to ensure the case mouth is properly butting against the front edge of the chamber for proper headspacing with every single round?
What if there is .003" +/- variation of that individual reloaders' trimmed cases from specified trim to length because few actually bother ensuring all their cases are the same length to a thou or two?
And what if SAAMI tells you to trim your cases .010" SHORT of the maximum case length? Assuming your chamber is precisely cut to SAAMI spec, when you start with cases that are already .010+" short of touching the front edge of the chamber, there's more variation than what you want to believe exists between a taper crimp, roll crimp, Lee Factory Crimp, etc.
In other words, whether you crimp or not, SAAMI's guidance to the publishers of reloading manuals is to have you trim your brass so that it is well short of ever touching the front edge of the chamber.
Maximum headspace dimension: 1.300"
Minimum headspace dimension: 1.290"
Trim to length dimension: 1.280"
In the old math, that's .020" shorter than a maximum chamber, .010" short of a minimum chamber.
You see any contact between the case mouth and the front edge of the chamber to obtain consistent headspacing in those dimensions?
When we start also stake crimping and asphalting bullets for civilian use because the crimp we choose to use when reloading .30 Carbine isn't sufficient, then pointing us at the .30 Carbine might be a bit persuasive. For now it is merely instructive in how following trim to length specifications from SAAMI leave your case mouth well short of contacting the front edge of the chamber for precise headspacing.
