New to reloading - need to buy reloading die set

[bigHUN]

I have ordered my first set of tools (dies for forming and seating, also for essentials for precise measuring), the ETA is a bit longer because some items on backorder, but I am fine with that.
Still remaining to add to the order list is the "ID forming buttons", I need to figure how these work.

The internet gives some directions, basically to measure the shot brass shell neck Wall Thickness, multiply x2 and add the bullet OD and add 0.002".
But the WT what I could precisely measure on multiple brass has a large variables between 0.013" and 0.018". Either me to put the biggest variables to side or Ream all of them to same size...

Which number to calculate, the minimum or the maximum?
The 308 Sierra Palma 155 OD is 0.30805"
2x 0.013 + 0.30805 + 0.002 = 0.3365" for the button?
2x 0.018 + 0.30805 + 0.002 = 0.34605" for the button?
I am seeing 10 thousandth of difference...

So, what would be a proper sequence of tightening the bass neck tolerances?
1. step - Ream all the shot shells - neck - to a same ID with a reamer for uniform WT?
2. step - Pressing all the shot shells - neck - to same OD with a Sizing Die?
3. step - Pressing all these resized - neck OD - with a button to a uniform neck ID?

What suppose come first? Resizing the shot brass neck OD or the ID?

 

[Potashminer]

Using what Richard Lee wrote in "Modern Reloading" - you have an error your formula - you want your sized brass to be at MOST about 0.002" SMALLER than your bullet - when you insert that bullet, you want it to slightly stretch that brass neck, within the elastic limits of the brass - to create "neck tension" - if you stretch it more than that, you exceed the elastic limit and simply re-form the brass - a smaller re-size creates less or no bullet holding tension, because then you exceeded the elastic limit. - as per Richard Lee.

If you use a bushing die - you will be sizing that inside hole by sizing the outside of the case neck - that makes uniform case neck walls really critical. Common dies, like RCBS - size the neck too small - by pressing on the outside of the brass neck - with the expander ball inside the case - so it sizes the neck as that ball / button gets pulled out (or pushed in). A Collet Neck Sizing die, like Lee makes, presses on the outside of the neck, against a mandrel that is inside the neck - resulting in an inside hole that is sized to match the mandrel diameter.

If you buy into what Richard Lee wrote, case neck wall thickness is about irrelevant, if you are sizing from the inside of the case - you want the inside hole to be between 0.000" and 0.002" smaller than the bullet.

Then, you will want about .002" room in your barrel chamber neck for that brass to expand and let go of that bullet. Read up on the Houston Warehouse Experiments - I believe the main guy, Virgil, was NOT sizing his brass at all - his barrel chamber neck was machined precisely to match what he reloaded with - simply the brass could expand when fired, and then relax to what he loaded as. But I doubt that he was using a store bought barrel, a store bought chambering reamer, or store bought reloading dies. Back in those days, a 5 or 10 shot group at 100 yards in the "teens" - less than 0.020" centre-to-centre - was considered pretty good. I think that level is still pretty decent. I believe some of Virgil's groups were 1/2 or 1/4 of that.

 

[bigHUN]

#1 -----Using what Richard Lee wrote in "Modern Reloading" - you have an error your formula - you want your sized brass to be at MOST about 0.002" SMALLER than your bullet - when you insert that bullet, you want it to slightly stretch that brass neck, within the elastic limits of the brass - to create "neck tension" - if you stretch it more than that, you exceed the elastic limit and simply re-form the brass - a smaller re-size creates less or no bullet holding tension, because then you exceeded the elastic limit. - as per Richard Lee.

#2 -----If you use a bushing die - you will be sizing that inside hole by sizing the outside of the case neck - that makes uniform case neck walls really critical. Common dies, like RCBS - size the neck too small - by pressing on the outside of the brass neck - with the expander ball inside the case - so it sizes the neck as that ball / button gets pulled out (or pushed in). A Collet Neck Sizing die, like Lee makes, presses on the outside of the neck, against a mandrel that is inside the neck - resulting in an inside hole that is sized to match the mandrel diameter.

#3 -----If you buy into what Richard Lee wrote, case neck wall thickness is about irrelevant, if you are sizing from the inside of the case - you want the inside hole to be between 0.000" and 0.002" smaller than the bullet.

#4 -----Then, you will want about .002" room in your barrel chamber neck for that brass to expand and let go of that bullet. Read up on the Houston Warehouse Experiments - I believe the main guy, Virgil, was NOT sizing his brass at all - his barrel chamber neck was machined precisely to match what he reloaded with - simply the brass could expand when fired, and then relax to what he loaded as. But I doubt that he was using a store bought barrel, a store bought chambering reamer, or store bought reloading dies. Back in those days, a 5 or 10 shot group at 100 yards in the "teens" - less than 0.020" centre-to-centre - was considered pretty good. I think that level is still pretty decent. I believe some of Virgil's groups were 1/2 or 1/4 of that.

Thanks for explaining.
#4 ---------This Rem 308 gun got to me from an f-class shooter, the problem so far is that I don't know yet the "barrel chamber neck" dimensions, what I hear only from my reloading friend that the old guy made (or ordered) that chamber neck longer, for some reason I got some amount of loaded amo as well with Sierra 2156 bullets barely holding into the brass...I could remove the bullets from the brass with fingers... I wrote down the lengths and spend those bullets on 200-300 range and not really impressive results...Many of these had inconsitent runouts on the neck also the4 bullet runout was all over the place.

I am working on that measuring the machined pocket in the barrel as we speak.

#1 ----------Yes, I just realized my mistake adding 0.002" instead of subtracting from the bullet OD.

I ordered a full LEE Wilson kit (3 pieces kit), and also the bushings in two incremental sizes, and tinkering to order couple buttons as well.

**** My best understanding was - measuring all ODs and IDs from a - shot brass, I have many of those.

I got some sized brass as well but I don't know nothing about history on those, so me to stay on established process those needs to wait for testing them when my Wilson dies arrive.

I am still confused a bit, I will need to read deaper about these things.
What to resize first, the shot brass OD from outside with a dimensional matching bushing? Meaning that need to calculate the wall thicknesses and bullet minus 0.002"
And then resize again the resized neck from inside with a button or mandrell to a bullet minus 0.002"

 

[cosmic]

Well - You can get the ID of the chamber at the neck by measuring a fired brass OD at the neck. Your rifle has a long throat (distance to rifling) to suit a long bullet. There are ways to establish what cartridge length is needed, using your seating die to set the bullet to an optimal length. A reloading manual can explain this to you.
Different brands of brass will have different neck wall thicknesses, so a change of bushings is needed. You can determine the actual neck "swell" (eg 2 thou) by measuring the OD of a sized neck, inserting a bullet, and measuring again.
I dont own bushing dies, as I didnt want to go down the bushing rabbit hole. I use a LEE collet die instead. As I understand it, the bushing dies also come with an expander button. This can be used:
- if you screw up and size the case too much using a bushing.
- if you get lazy and get tired of playing with bushings.
There are lots of Youtube videos on the subject. The success of the bushing die depends upon having constant neck wall thickness, so that needs to be addressed before sizing, if needed. I see many bushings and a brass neck OD trimmer in your future.

 

[bigHUN]

I am researching the internet for days and not much information about reaming the brass neck with Wilson tools.
Ended up sending an email directly to Wilson Tech Support, asking to explain the sequence of operations - for shot brass in my interest at the moment.
The closest utube talking about the reaming with Wilson tools is already couple years old, and more talking about the guy learning curve:

youtube.com/watch?v=c7WIss7Djpg

 

[Dmay]

I think you are needlessly complicating your life by all this "reaming" .
Typically a sizing die will have an expander button, which will center the "hole", so to speak. This can also be done with an expander mandrel.
Thus, you must outside-turn the neck to have consistent wall thickness, not ream the inside.

 

[Potashminer]

Barrel chamber neck - is likely two measurements - the chamber is cut so that there is a shoulder at the end, that the brass case can run into - why you trim case length - so that you do not run into that shoulder - I suppose some shooters could have that lengthened - would not have to trim their brass so often - that would also increase the neck length available to hold the bullet. That has nothing whatever to do with headspace.

Then - there is the distance from the closed bolt face, to where a particular bullet makes contact with the lands - should be like a tapered start to the rifling ridges - the lands - you might hear some shooters talking about "chasing the lands" - that end of the riflings can erode with firing - I do not know if the difference is measurable after 10 shots, 100 shots or 1000 shots. If you "hang your hat" that you insist on 0.028" bullet jump - and your lands erode .002", then you have to re-set your seating die, because you will no longer have 0.028" jump. The Woodleigh manual explains how to find that distance - I read the same procedure in a Nosler manual (?) and in a John Barsness article - Woodleigh suggests that one should start with 0.020" to 0.040" "jump" with their bullets, and then "fine tune" from there. Other articles that I read suggested 0.030" jump to start and "fine tune" from there - same difference, I think. I never used them, but I read that some solid mono-metal bullets want like 0.070" "jump" - you would need to read the bullet maker's recommendation.

 

[maynard]

Your best investment at this time would be to buy and start with a couple hundred pieces of new Lapua. Once in hand, buy a set of Redding Type "S" dies with the proper bushings that will give you -.002" press fit for your bullets.
You can spend hours and hours dicking around doing brass prep but the key to accuracy in consistency. Spend your money on stiff that will really makes a big difference like an accurate powder scale. Something that can measure to .02 gr not something that weighs within .2 gr.

Even after spending all your time and money on making the very best ammo that you can produce, missing a 2 minute wind change at 1000 yards will put that perfectly manufacture bullet into the 3 ring.

 

[bigHUN]

Your best investment at this time would be ....

I have about hundred shot twice Lapua's and about same new neck turned and primer installed.
Scales and presses already in house, the runout checking tool is diy.
Waiting for the LeWilson dies/tools to ship. Also shopping for Sierra 2156.
In meantime I got the max seating depth number to tinker with.
Learning the wind and living with it I have some learning curve from low power, and I am aware of what you saying.

 

[sonichanxiao]

I have ordered my first set of tools (dies for forming and seating, also for essentials for precise measuring), the ETA is a bit longer because some items on backorder, but I am fine with that.
Still remaining to add to the order list is the "ID forming buttons", I need to figure how these work.

The internet gives some directions, basically to measure the shot brass shell neck Wall Thickness, multiply x2 and add the bullet OD and add 0.002".
But the WT what I could precisely measure on multiple brass has a large variables between 0.013" and 0.018". Either me to put the biggest variables to side or Ream all of them to same size...

Which number to calculate, the minimum or the maximum?
The 308 Sierra Palma 155 OD is 0.30805"
2x 0.013 + 0.30805 + 0.002 = 0.3365" for the button?
2x 0.018 + 0.30805 + 0.002 = 0.34605" for the button?
I am seeing 10 thousandth of difference...

So, what would be a proper sequence of tightening the bass neck tolerances?
1. step - Ream all the shot shells - neck - to a same ID with a reamer for uniform WT?
2. step - Pressing all the shot shells - neck - to same OD with a Sizing Die?
3. step - Pressing all these resized - neck OD - with a button to a uniform neck ID?

What suppose come first? Resizing the shot brass neck OD or the ID?

If you are loading for F class match kind of accuracy, your steps would be
1.annealing
2.Full length resizing brass with a bushing inside the die to set the OD
3.Use expander mandrel to set the ID of the brass neck
4. Tumble/clean the brass if you prefer the shiny surface
5. Trim if necessary, and chamfer/debur
6. Prime and powder charge
7. Seat


And for the brass thickness, I doubt that's lapua brass with such a huge variance. If it is, contact the factory or dealer/distributor. Or neck turn for same thickness. Consistent ID is more important from my understanding.