When looking for .22LR match ammo question

[DanRR]

I'm new in the 22lr realm, hence I'm "pedaling" to learn and this forum is rich in knowledge.
I also like to try things, like install a varmint barrel on a regular CZ-457 stock...it can be done very easily; thanks to barthammer and leuchtkafer that gave me their input.
Now , my ignorant 2 cents about the questions of grauhanen.
My range neighbor shoots the same rifle than me; his rifle likes CCI Standard Velocity, not mine; he shoots SK ammo. also.
Just to experiment, I had weighted my CCI Blazer ammo 50,0 to 50.5 and 50.5 grains up.
Last sunday, I went for the first time ever at the 100 meters benches with the 50.5 lot.
- CZ-457 varmint barrel, 24", on a regular stock, not yet worked for free floating, touching the bottom of the channel for about 3" from the end of the forearm.
- Vortex Diamondback 6x24x50 telescope.
- CCI Blazer 40 gr. ammo. ; ammo from a brick of 500, 10x50 round boxes.
- Caldwell bipod.
- no rear bag, left arm supporting.

The sorted ammo performed much better than when not sorted.
I believe high quality ammo must have a consistency that permits better groupings.

Here is the result : two 5 shots magazines , 4 holes touching and a flyer for the first magazine, reload, same thing for the second; flyers due to lack of seriousness of the shooter.

 

[DanRR]

Gentlemen,
A question if you please.
Nowhere in this thread I see the mention of human factor.
Do you shoot your rifles in such a steady set-up that permits to discard that variable ?

 

[OkayShooter]

Gentlemen,
A question if you please.
Nowhere in this thread I see the mention of human factor.
Do you shoot your rifles in such a steady set-up that permits to discard that variable ?

Front rest or bipod with rear bag is what most of shooters use to get the best accuracy.

Glenn posts are more for advance shooters.

 

[old303]

And even if you’re planning to shoot freehand or from a sling, testing ammo or zeroing a scope or determining the rifle’s own inherent accuracy is best done with it firmly supported.

 

[Buck1950]

DanRR - When I'm testing for accuracy I use a sled. JMO, but I want to know mostly what the Gun can do, then work on my Form. This one I've had for about 10-years, bought at Cabelas for ~$90 back then. These are no longer made tho may be on some shelves in LGS? LOP is adjustable @ Center T-screw, Back and front legs fine-adjust height and Big wheel for coarse height. I wedge something in the Butt-cup to stabilize and my CZ 457 VMTR has 5-oz Timney for 'pinch-trigger'. Range setup below - I wasn't very tidy, usually alone at this range. One of my targets that day last Sept, 100-yds with CZ-457 VMTR and Sav B-22 and Ruger Am-Std in .223. And I'm still working on that 'Form'

 

[skwerl]

I base-line all my rifles on SK Std Plus then
selective step up individually from there.

Eley Team is my next go to,.
...skwerl

 

[DanRR]

Thanks gentlemen.
So I can consider my target above as not bad ?

 

[Buck1950]

Yes, if those are 2 separate groups on that target, looks to be ca 0.5xx" there. Pretty good for just 'getting into' the 22-realm. You might do even better with some SK brands, CZs seem to better than CCI from my experience and from what I've read. My CZs prefer SK Rifle Match, but I don't compete and don't buy anything more expensive than that.

 

[DanRR]

Thanks Buck,
I don't compete either....just fun shooting.
As of now, my CZ likes the Blazer's but I will try other brands.
Its completely different than what I'm use to in IPSC, CAS and black powder.

 

[dan belisle]

When it comes to opinions, opinions about facts seem less important than the facts themselves.

Is it indeed an incontrovertible fact that every gun shoots the same ammo differently? Beyond the idea getting repeated on the internet, how is it known?

Take a half dozen 22 rifles to the range. Feed them various types of ammunition. Note the differences. - dan

 

[grauhanen]

Take a half dozen 22 rifles to the range. Feed them various types of ammunition. Note the differences. - dan

See above, posts #18 and #19 for information. In this case, there were virtually no differences.

 

[dan belisle]

See above, posts #18 and #19 for information. In this case, there were virtually no differences.

I've done this myself. There were large differences. That's what makes horse races, I guess. - dan

 

[yodave]

chamber, muzzle, barrel steel, lock time, action screw torque, temperture, humidity, elevation all have an effect on how any rimfire barrel will shoot any ammo, does good ammo shoot good in all barrels, no, will bad ammo shoot better in a better barrel, possibly, because it may not be the ammo that makes it shoot bad, and best of all the break throughs in the rimfire world in the last 2 decades, the slow motion camera guys, showing just how poorly bullets leave the muzzle of the barrel, yawing in every which direction but true, will a good barrel fix that? unlikely, it's an ammo issue, but a tighter choked barrel might just fix it, how oversized can a barrel be before it doesn't shoot, what's the exceptable level of diameter difference on ammo before it fails inspection? wasn't that long ago I used to lot test with a dozen people at a time, would we all settle on the same lot number? nope........and that was between either 12 anshutz rifles, or a dozen benchrest rifles, and get this, ammo that shoots great in BC absolutely sucked in saskatchewan, same lot, same barrel, figure that one out

 

[grauhanen]

I've done this myself. There were large differences.

Countless guys shooting samples of match ammo will agree, especially with sporters but also with BR rifles. They report this on the internet, too, and, despite overlooking the causes, the idea takes hold.

The problem is twofold. All too often shooters think that every lot of match ammo is uniform in performance but frequently they aren't. Ammo variation within lots will inevitably show. The results are obvious. Second, small sample sizes of results are notoriously unreliable. The consequences are obvious.

Good ammo is good ammo. It doesn't know where it is.

 

[Mr Bill]

Consider this my friends…if you want to increase your probability of acquiring a extremely accurate .22LR rifle then spend the bucks up front on a brand new known high quality product OR if you’re buying ‘used’ then only from a trusted friend who wouldn’t dump a lemon on you. My guess would be that 50% of what you see on EE isn’t quite up to par in the accuracy department and is being recycled for funds to buy something else, hopefully better…Yes there are many other reasons we sell off some of our toys but I’m sure the ‘one holers’ are keepers stashed away in the back of everyone’s safe.
The problem is if you are a gunaholic, which I confess to being a self designated chapter president, we are doomed to scroll through our EE’s hourly looking for that hidden gem. Well..back to the EE’s. Cheers

 

[OkayShooter]

With rimfire, I find people just have unreasonable accuracy goals.

Match ammo will be different in sporter, BR, FRT small bore, PRS guns. So many see these and expect their guns to perform the same.

 

[horseman2]

Gentlemen,
A question if you please.
Nowhere in this thread I see the mention of human factor.
Do you shoot your rifles in such a steady set-up that permits to discard that variable ?

regarding the human factor . . . there re two things that cause inaccuracy in shooting . . . the nut that holds the gun and the jerk that pulls the trigger! LOL

Shooting 100 M. is a challenge and testing ammo is everything. A ten shot group requires measuring all ten. Relying on four touching is not fooling anyone but yourself. Shoot a whole box of five 10-shot groups.

Remove that contact point. Find a long socket that just fits a little smaller than the barrel channel, wrap it with sand paper cut to a little short and held in place with a little duct tape. Go slow as it does not take much.

Mission DRGC hosts monthly 100/200 M. Rimfire matches. Take a look if you are close.

 

[dan belisle]

Countless guys shooting samples of match ammo will agree, especially with sporters but also with BR rifles. They report this on the internet, too, and, despite overlooking the causes, the idea takes hold.

The problem is twofold. All too often shooters think that every lot of match ammo is uniform in performance but frequently they aren't. Ammo variation within lots will inevitably show. The results are obvious. Second, small sample sizes of results are notoriously unreliable. The consequences are obvious.

Good ammo is good ammo. It doesn't know where it is.

And 22 rimfires are 22 rimfires. And sometimes the combo of rifle and ammo work well, and sometimes they don't. - dan

 

[Williwaw]

It is a fact that at the testing centers a lot of good rifles are tested in ideal conditions using top level ammo. It is a fact that a single rifle will produce a wide range of outcomes ... say with 10-15 lots of Cx. The lot which shoots the best in one rifle often shoots the best in most rifles, but not necessarily. And a lot that performs miserably in one rifle or several rifles may be a gem in yet another rifle. These statements are based on the posts of people who have been to the centers or of the center employees themselves(how do you get that job??)

Regarding consistency within the lots I have shot ... Working with what I believe are reliable statistical measures none of the lots has been inconsistent. Some were better than others and some seemed a little variable but given all of the vagaries of my shooting circumstance, experience and equipment I don't hold the opinion that ammo inconsistency within lots is much of a factor. In fact, in the course of shooting up most cases my scores usually go up and group statistics improve. There are reasons for this which aren't relevant here but if the ammo was sufficiently inconsistent my results would be as likely to drift the other way.

It seems relevant to share that my experience is with SK RM, LRM, STD+ and Lapua Cx and PK.

EDIT: It is a little pointless my talking about consistency/inconsistency without defining the term in this application. I would consider ammo to be inconsistent if a 100 round sample(2 percent of a case) failed a students t-test with 80 percent confidence when compared to the rest of the case. Armchair statisticians please go easy on me. My point is my having a bad day or week at the range doesn't prove the ammo is inconsistent.

 

[ricochet]

I haven't seen any discussion on the volume of shots vs cleaning. Whenever a comparison between different firearms is mentioned, is it starting from a clean bore or some amount of previous shots? Could this be another source of any inconsistencies experienced?