Current quality issues with the Rim-X action - Bolt Gouging.
- Thread starter The ROC
- Start date
I'm just spitballing but I think the issue is not a design flaw or inappropriate metal but could be traced to extremely tight tolerances and inadequate lubrication and cleaning. any grit that becomes trapped in the locking lugs will begin to score the surface of the bolt lugs and action raceways. I don't own one of these rifles but have handled one and the tolerances are crazy tight. they are like a ferrari, high performance but also high maintenance.
Leuchtkafer
Member
An hour and a half video... Sorry I find it hard to listen to Kenny for an extended length of time. 20 minutes in and they're really not getting to the point. OK a material change... softer metal, makes what I said even more applicable, re-grease after every shot
Not an actual solution, just a band-aid. Sounds like Rim-X should just go back to the original material if this issue only came out after the material change.It's an informative video. I didn't know Vudoo was sold off and exclusive build by DI Precision. I already knew about the Bergara issues. And the Rim-X bolt issue brings consumer awareness when dishing out the $$$$. Canadian buyers of new OR used Rim-X action can have the seller take pictures/ video of the bolt and how smooth the action is.
Like or dislike Kenny... Take this information for what it's worth.
Like or dislike Kenny... Take this information for what it's worth.
1144SP is under 100ksi and should be measured on the HRB scale not the HRC. Max hardness for that steel is B97 which translates to 20HRC.
Seeing the comparison of the new and old bolt the "shine" strikes me as important, likely indicating a different surface finish. Getting a smooth finish on softer steels is more difficult and it appears the roughness average (RA) has increased. When the peaks and valleys of the surface have larger standard deviation it is easier for them to "stick" together and cause galling.
I'm not familiar with the action beyond this video but I would expect even contact area over the surface of the lug instead of concentrated force on the edge of the lug.
Seeing the comparison of the new and old bolt the "shine" strikes me as important, likely indicating a different surface finish. Getting a smooth finish on softer steels is more difficult and it appears the roughness average (RA) has increased. When the peaks and valleys of the surface have larger standard deviation it is easier for them to "stick" together and cause galling.
I'm not familiar with the action beyond this video but I would expect even contact area over the surface of the lug instead of concentrated force on the edge of the lug.
Thank-You The ROC for sharing
As our shop has served many CA clients and currently have 12 awaiting their builds to be imported to Canada. These individuals brought this form to our attention. I want to emphasize that it is even more important our Canadian brothers are aware of this situation because if they where to acquire a rifle with this problem, exportation of parts and or their rifle would be more of a significant cost.
Yes the live chat is long as it also was opened for Q and A, but a demonstration of showing this from new actions can be seen HERE (1 min long) if your attention span is less than my 4 year old
HRB/HRC testing on multiple locations on 12 sample bolts where performed on a well industry recognized equipment; Phase II tester. HRB is read on the same scale with the appropriate ball used for this material. HRC is refrenced because of direct translation and use with material specialist. Many are coming forth with similar issues and encourage to use any details we provide to help one another in our community. We need accountability when manufactures fall short and solution to those expirencing these issues. It's only through recognition and support from our community that we can resolve this together
Here's some recent shared photos from non clients with reports and direct shared conversion with Zermatt of this issue from over 8 months ago. This is a KNOWN issue that Zermatt refused to address and was handling on individual complaint bases. This issue has nothing to do with lack of grease, debris with the bolt lugs or tight tolerances. The Rim-X in comparison to actions like the 2500x or Anchutz actually has loose tolerance in many areas including the bolt lugs
Rim-X Bolt gouging pics
As our shop has served many CA clients and currently have 12 awaiting their builds to be imported to Canada. These individuals brought this form to our attention. I want to emphasize that it is even more important our Canadian brothers are aware of this situation because if they where to acquire a rifle with this problem, exportation of parts and or their rifle would be more of a significant cost.
Yes the live chat is long as it also was opened for Q and A, but a demonstration of showing this from new actions can be seen HERE (1 min long) if your attention span is less than my 4 year old
HRB/HRC testing on multiple locations on 12 sample bolts where performed on a well industry recognized equipment; Phase II tester. HRB is read on the same scale with the appropriate ball used for this material. HRC is refrenced because of direct translation and use with material specialist. Many are coming forth with similar issues and encourage to use any details we provide to help one another in our community. We need accountability when manufactures fall short and solution to those expirencing these issues. It's only through recognition and support from our community that we can resolve this together
Here's some recent shared photos from non clients with reports and direct shared conversion with Zermatt of this issue from over 8 months ago. This is a KNOWN issue that Zermatt refused to address and was handling on individual complaint bases. This issue has nothing to do with lack of grease, debris with the bolt lugs or tight tolerances. The Rim-X in comparison to actions like the 2500x or Anchutz actually has loose tolerance in many areas including the bolt lugs
Rim-X Bolt gouging pics
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Leuchtkafer
Member
It's unclear to me how coming here and insulting people's attention spans helps foster good customer relations or reflects well on one's reputation. When there is maybe 10-15 minutes worth of relevant content it's simply not a good time value proposition for those that prefer to be succinct. If others are bored and want an hour or so of entertainment, by all means indulge.
Ultimately this issues arose from an unforced error committed by Zermatt, it does not rest upon any of us to solve it for them. I can thank Kenny for his effort to raise awareness of the issue, as prospective buyers of this action surely need to know about it.
To say that a lack of grease or debris has nothing to do with the issue is erroneous. Those are two well known risk factors for galling. While they may not be the only factor at play in this situation, if we are dealing with a material that is more susceptible to galling then it becomes critical that the parts are clean and well lubricated, or they will gall. It is another matter for us to make a determination that a material with such high maintenance requirements is not suitable for our application. The surface area of contact on the lugs looks rather small, another contributing factor. If Zermatt were to be able to make this material work in a rifle bolt application, a larger contact area would be necessitated as well as strict tolerance on surface finish. Clearly the appropriate research and development did not go in to this material change and it is unfortunate for those affected.
If it is of interest for anyone to learn more about galling, the following guide may prove valuable: https://fractory.com/galling-explained/
Ultimately this issues arose from an unforced error committed by Zermatt, it does not rest upon any of us to solve it for them. I can thank Kenny for his effort to raise awareness of the issue, as prospective buyers of this action surely need to know about it.
To say that a lack of grease or debris has nothing to do with the issue is erroneous. Those are two well known risk factors for galling. While they may not be the only factor at play in this situation, if we are dealing with a material that is more susceptible to galling then it becomes critical that the parts are clean and well lubricated, or they will gall. It is another matter for us to make a determination that a material with such high maintenance requirements is not suitable for our application. The surface area of contact on the lugs looks rather small, another contributing factor. If Zermatt were to be able to make this material work in a rifle bolt application, a larger contact area would be necessitated as well as strict tolerance on surface finish. Clearly the appropriate research and development did not go in to this material change and it is unfortunate for those affected.
If it is of interest for anyone to learn more about galling, the following guide may prove valuable: https://fractory.com/galling-explained/
So....... many live in the desert, we can't run lubricant or grease in our rifles with the environment as it becomes a magnent for abbrassive. I highly suggest those that don't believe hardness plays factor to consult metal specialist to hear it from them (adequate hardness for the application with the sacraficial part within 5BHN will mitigate galling itself. Any coatings and lubricant will further aid, but will not prevent galling itself). The attention span comment I made was directed at Mr. Leuchtkafer and the sligh remark in his first comment just to be clear.
Mr. Leuchtkafer
Please do not neglect to take account previous thousands of Rim-X rifles built that didnt have this issue, not needing a geometry change... Then material change happened (cheaper material) and problems occured........I'll simply ignore your comments moving forward, but I will defend my name. Again, I encourage you to talk to those in manufacturing and metal applications instead of drawing conclusions from googled publications instead of expirence in this craft. Clients of ours and non clients alike have been contacting Zermatt with this issue and forcing the manufacturer to respond. Zermatt now acknowledges this issue and responding with bolt replacements by end of February with the older material. That is progress made within 1 business day from our live chat
MANY are coming forth reporting this issue as emails flood. I'm sure some have greased their bolts as it's actually greased from factory lol. I have built over 1200 Rim-X rifles in the past without an issue of galling until now as well as I personally own a Rim-X with 12K rounds (no lubrication) the bolt still has near zero wear.
Enough is enough in our sport, dealing with these ridiculous issues. I'm excited to move forth and start offering solutions and alternatives. We are securing vendors in CA to offer a new action soon along with upgrades for CZ457 and B14r owners. Currently working on a info section on exportation process from the states and offer solutions with our exportation partners to get cheaper exportation options, including replacement bolt assemblies for those who are expirencing this problem
Mr. Leuchtkafer
Please do not neglect to take account previous thousands of Rim-X rifles built that didnt have this issue, not needing a geometry change... Then material change happened (cheaper material) and problems occured........I'll simply ignore your comments moving forward, but I will defend my name. Again, I encourage you to talk to those in manufacturing and metal applications instead of drawing conclusions from googled publications instead of expirence in this craft. Clients of ours and non clients alike have been contacting Zermatt with this issue and forcing the manufacturer to respond. Zermatt now acknowledges this issue and responding with bolt replacements by end of February with the older material. That is progress made within 1 business day from our live chat
MANY are coming forth reporting this issue as emails flood. I'm sure some have greased their bolts as it's actually greased from factory lol. I have built over 1200 Rim-X rifles in the past without an issue of galling until now as well as I personally own a Rim-X with 12K rounds (no lubrication) the bolt still has near zero wear.
Enough is enough in our sport, dealing with these ridiculous issues. I'm excited to move forth and start offering solutions and alternatives. We are securing vendors in CA to offer a new action soon along with upgrades for CZ457 and B14r owners. Currently working on a info section on exportation process from the states and offer solutions with our exportation partners to get cheaper exportation options, including replacement bolt assemblies for those who are expirencing this problem
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I think there may have been some issues with testing the actual steel after the secondary heat treatment process, the number quoted is higher than the manufacturer states as the highest possible. The test may have been more representative of the hardness of the surface treatment which is only a few thou deep at most. If the metal below the surface treatment becomes deformed the surface treatment will cease to be effective and its hardness will begin to act as an abrasive, magnifying the galling effect.
Hardness is not the be-all end-all of wear properties, it is possible to have the same material with almost the same hardness and significantly differing wear characteristics based on the rate at which marstenite was converted from austenite and the carbide precipitation level. Unfortunately 1144SP has a chromium content of zero so no carbides can be formed, the only way to improve wear characteristics to to make sure the austenite conversion process is as complete as possible.
You may need to make a few more posts to enable your pictures to be visible, I would be interested to see some high quality close ups of a new and old bolt, focused exclusively on the galling area.
Leuchtkafer
Member
Kenny, I'll change one word in what I said. "Sorry, I find it hard to listen to yodelling for an extended length of time". Is this a slight against yodellers and their craft? Does this mean I lack the attention span to listen to yodelling for hours on end? Or is it simply a personal expression that the material is not my cup of tea? I'll leave you to reflect upon what coming in with a knee jerk childish response says about your level of professionalism. You picked a fight where there was none to be had.
I'm not sure what part of " Sounds like Rim-X should just go back to the original material if this issue only came out after the material change." you had difficulty understanding, we're not even in disagreement here. At least one person understood my comment to "re-grease after every shot" was tongue in cheek.
I did my due diligence and listened to the entire video, not once did I hear you address the environmental conditions some shooters find themselves in that would preclude the use of a lubricant. Even if "anti-galling compound XYZ" solved the issue, of course it's not a complete solution as it cannot be used in the scenario you now present. I think we all agree that if Zermatt had something that worked, simply go back to it and there is little sense in hypothesizing about what engineering parameters might make 1144SP steel successful in a rifle bolt application, because it is not in the Rim-X design.
I'm not sure what part of " Sounds like Rim-X should just go back to the original material if this issue only came out after the material change." you had difficulty understanding, we're not even in disagreement here. At least one person understood my comment to "re-grease after every shot" was tongue in cheek.
I did my due diligence and listened to the entire video, not once did I hear you address the environmental conditions some shooters find themselves in that would preclude the use of a lubricant. Even if "anti-galling compound XYZ" solved the issue, of course it's not a complete solution as it cannot be used in the scenario you now present. I think we all agree that if Zermatt had something that worked, simply go back to it and there is little sense in hypothesizing about what engineering parameters might make 1144SP steel successful in a rifle bolt application, because it is not in the Rim-X design.
Here's some close up of a original 4142 bolt with 12k rounds for comparison
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Hi Kenny,
I am assuming Modacam has ran into similar issues?
And do you have an exact serial number on when the change happened? I remember #2980 being mentioned somewhere in the video. So it would be safe to assume anything before that doesn't have the issue?
We have received emails from clients with their builds with this same issue. Cannot speak on Modacams behalf if they are or are not.
From our shop
Since last year we had no issues with this up to action 2998. Then we have aquired 35 actions starting at 3001 - 3898 from multiple Zermatt retailers that are all expirencing this same issue.
